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Why JD Tippit Had To Die


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#21 Gordon Gray

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:30 AM

While I think that elements of the Dallas police were involved, I don't think the entire Dallas police force was involved. Otherwise he would have been killed during the arrest. The fact that he wasn't killed is reason enough not to have entrusted his elimination to them. Especially when you have him in a car and can take him anywhere you want to in order to do away with him.. I find it easier to accept the Harvey/Lee explanation of the Tippit shooting than this one, Although I am not convinced about that either. What I am convinced of is Oswald didn't shoot Tippit, he went to the Texas Theatre in order to meet a contact, and was there at the time Tippit was shot..



#22 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:08 PM

I dont think all Dallas police officers were involved either.Harvey/Lee is another ball game alltogether, which I dont fancy at all. But I could be wrong.

#23 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:01 PM

About the Harvey/Lee explanation, Gordon. Do you by that mean you are in favor of John Armstrongs theory of two real Oswald's, one "Harvey" and one "Lee"?

I think Armstrong has done fantastic work, monumental.

Still I cant wrap my head around the idea of the CIA in 1952 (when they were not even close to the predeator they would become under Dulles 7-8 years later) could identify and recruit two boys, not related, and two mothers, not related, with the purpose of participate in some sort of intelligence scheme. These four people would look very much like each other thru the years and years after Kennedy was killed Armstrong found evidence of those boys attending different schools in their teenage years.

My question is: How would CIA know beforehand those boys would grow up (and the moms) looking alike thru their teenage years, and the moms thru their middle and older age? How is that possible? Well, I say it is not possible. People can look alike at a given point in life, yes. But if you were to take two persons that are look-alikes at a given age and go back in time, you would find they didnt look alike at all. This would only work if the boys were twins IMO. So how would CIA know how to pick the two boys knowing they would grow up look very much alike every year from the age of 12 to 23? This is where that theory falls a part.

I believe this was the result of an intelligence operation, perhaps ONI and CIA in connection to the defector program in 1959. Other than that I cant understand why no one addresses this simple fact.



#24 Gordon Gray

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:19 PM

I find it difficult to explain away all the instances Armstrong documents of Oswald being in two places at once. Just when this project began who knows. But some one was definitely using his name in more than one place at the same time through out much of his life up to and including Nov. 22. Assuming there was someone involved in the assassination who resembled LHO, goes a long way to explaining a number of the contradictions in the Tippit shooting.



#25 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 03:10 PM

Well, I think one has to do the distinction between one Harvey and one Lee and "second Oswalds". I do think there were several "second Oswald" but no Harvey and Lee. We just have to call it a day on that. :D



#26 Charles Drago

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:14 PM

Two points, neither of which should be read as either endorsement or dismissal of Armstrong's work.

 

1. To dilute investigative energy and insight into the long-established and well developed (Popkin, et al) two-LHO hypothesis, high-level Facilitators could do worse than create a "Harvey and Lee"-like disinformation provocation.

 

2. In this instance the Doppelganger Gambit may have been expanded -- or better yet, double-downed -- to include two -- or more -- conflicting explanations for one manifestation of it.


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#27 Pete Engwall

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 02:08 PM

Gordon, same topic, There had to be some sort of closure that stopped the need to continue looking for further guilty parties, hence the lone killer and I bet the original plan favored "killed by cop" and the incident at the theatre could have been been different but for the "I am not resisting arrest" shout from LHO. If that is real, then it takes a very cool cop to still gun him down. I think the end result is the same though, there was nothing that came out of the DPD about the questioning of Oswald. Arrested and killed or arrested and kept in jail and then killed provides some form of first closure. All those that bought the official story got a sense of "cases over". The plane and exit to Cuba would have required higher stakes and maybe LeMay did not have strong enough voice in the power group (not the normal power elite, but the group that were hands on the operation?)  It is only speculation and you could very well be right but I think they wanted closure asap, i.e. kill Oswald. Had they only had shots from behind and not witnesses to the contrary, then I think it could have been more tempting with the Oswald to Cuba angle, as it were they were not 100% sure if they got away with it until Oswald was dead. Still, your idea is just as valid untill we know for sure.


Pete Engwall

 


#28 Gordon Gray

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:44 AM

Phillips et. al., went to a great deal of effort to link LHO to Castro. The plan may have shifted to LN after Oswald's arrest but prior to that it would appear to have been Castro did it. Counting on the cops to eliminate LHO during arrest, is just too sketchy a plan, for the people who other wise seemed highly organized. Why go to all the trouble to set up and murder Tippit, then lead police to the Theatre, in order to kill Oswald during am arrest, risking his being taken into custody instead. During custody, LHO had plenty of opportunity to blurt out to the press something like "I didn't kill anyone. I work for the FBI." That would have been enough to set of a media poop storm. The MSM weren't totally under control at that time. Far simpler if you have him in a car already, to take him somewhere and do away with him.. Then you totally control the circumstances. The press and police can be fed any evidence or story you want. I don't personally believe LHO was the man getting in the Rambler. It was someone who resembled him enough for Craig to have been mistaken. I think LHO went to his rooming house and then went to the Theatre to meet a contact.



#29 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:17 PM

Fair enough, Gordon. We dont claim to know the truth. :)

#30 Gordon Gray

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 02:14 PM

I certainly don't claim to know the truth. For me it is a matter of the most logical interpretation of the evidence. I have been told by others that since the whole JFK assignation is "through the looking glass" logic shouldn't matter, but to me it still does.



#31 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:21 PM

We just see and value different things in this case, and thats to be expected from researchers. I have come to the conclusion its healthy to theorize and debate. I just dont think your take is the most logical, even If its a view many hold.

#32 Pete Engwall

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:13 AM

This is a general comment but hopefully still on the same topic.

 

We have held the view that most of the time there is a high degree of correlation between what was planned and what happened. (If you don't see any signs of a plan going wrong, that is...) Since they used the Tippit killing as a means to get Oswald then we have maintained the connection that they planned it, they did it and they used that "fact" or evidence right away. Had they used it as an opportunity, then more time would have passed. As it was, the payoff or usage came right away. Also, nothing else of equivalent magnitude came in to take its place.

 

They did not have any good alternative that stood up to any test of any kind, it is only after LHO is accused of a killing that the cooked up supporting evidence becomes of value. None of the supporting evidence was of an immediate "guilt" nature, killing Tippit and pointing to LHO was.

 

They were also acting to keep other information out of the picture, that is clear by how they treated witnesses right away, confiscated film and pictures. Since they tried to bully and persuade and select witnesses - that means that they had a plan and that the plan was just that. They did not accidently coordinate the witness treatment all over Dealey Plaza right way by pure instinct...

 

We think you have to "weigh" the different possibilities and check for consistency in how they acted and executed the plan. I wish I could express it more clearly but to us the relative weight of the alternatives are obvious. Did this help?   


Pete Engwall

 


#33 Charles Drago

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:50 PM

Forgive me if I'm not reading closely enough, but what "truth" is it that you claim not to know?


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#34 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:38 PM

Charles, the "truth" you perhaps can report if you were there and saw it all.



#35 Greg Burnham

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:38 AM

Lest there be a squabble over semantics due to English as a second language considerations:

 

The "truth" that one could perhaps report if they were omniscient.


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#36 Charles Drago

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:23 PM

It is the truth that conspirators killed John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

 

Anyone with reasonable access to the evidence in this case who does not acknowledge that truth is cognitively impaired and/or complicit in the crime.


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#37 Greg Burnham

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:02 PM

It is the truth that conspirators killed John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

 

Anyone with reasonable access to the evidence in this case who does not acknowledge that truth is cognitively impaired and/or complicit in the crime.

 

This belongs in Assassination 101: The Basics   :D

 

If they don't know that by now they sure are faking it well.


_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
 
Greg Burnham
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

Website:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Main Page

 

Forum:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Research Forum

 
YouTube Channel:
 
GooglePlus:
 
Twitter:
 
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#38 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 01:15 PM

Charles, I dont mind If you comment on the article I wrote. It is a theory. Whimsy or not, just a theory. :)

#39 Brian Kelshaw

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 11:29 AM

Steffan.

A very well presented piece, and an interesting take on the mystery, (and no doubt the result of a lot of hard work)! Just a couple of points if I may. You open by referring to Jefferson Davis Tippit, yet McBride, whose excellent book you reference heavily reveals that his father, Edgar Lee Tippit told McBride personally that he named him JD after a character called JD of the Mountains, a good guy from a book he'd read. JD was just that, JD.

Last November I was lucky enough to listen to the granddaughter of Lee's landlady whilst visiting 1026 North Beckley courtesy of JFK Lancer. She said two things I found interesting. Firstly, she said that because they changed the bedding etc, her Grandmother and Mrs Roberts (and I think she said she occasionally herself as a youngster) made a point of checking for things like guns, knives, even booze! She said that in her opinion it would have been difficult for Lee to have kept a weapon there (especially given that they'd had two days to carry out their covert checks since Lee was last there).
The second thing I found fascinating were a couple of purely personal anecdotes. She remembered "Mr Lee" fondly. In particular she remembered an occasion when her brothers were fighting outside the house. Lee sat them on a wall and told them how brothers should never fight, and that they should look out for each other. She also told us how their mother kept them away from the TV all day Friday 22nd and Saturday 23rd November because of what was happening. On Sunday, she relented and let them watch. She then described the shooting by Ruby, and her brother shouting out "that man just shot Mr Lee!!"

#40 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 12:19 AM

Thanks, Brian,

Yes, I know youre right about JD; researcher Steven Duffy from Australia also pointed that out to me, and when he did I realized I knew it - after having read McBride's Into the Nightmare. Im also aware of that Lee allegedly was nice to the landlady's children. It sure doesnt fit, I agree. But the answer might lay elsewhere... :) 






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