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The Altgens 6 - a manipulated photo or not?


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#1 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 05:16 AM

FELLOW RESEARCHERS:

 

How do you feel about the photo called "Altgens 6"? Is it manipulated, what did the photo do for the "conspirators" if anything, how do you view the old phtograph editor Ike Altgens (unusually) acting a press photographer on the 22nd of November 1963? (lets not get into an argument over Oswald in the door or not). :)


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#2 Greg Burnham

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:24 AM

... (lets not get into an argument over Oswald in the door or not). :)

 

Indeed.


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#3 Guest_Roger DeLaria_*

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 02:18 PM

Well, I think that Altgens 6 might have been a planned, coordinated photo, specifically timed to show Kennedy being hit, and SS agents turning to look back toward the depository, the sole purpose being to capture a specific moment, as "proof" that Oswald fired shots from the depository. The "conspirators" knew that people would be analyzing evidence, and this would point them in the "right " direction, following the script.

 

As far as manipulation, I'm not a photographic expert, but some researchers(Groden, I believe) have said that there was some work done in front of the depository(colored in areas & matte lines) and in the 2nd floor of the Dal-tex building. It looks to me that the photo was manipulated. Exactly in what ways, I don't know.



#4 Larry Trotter

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 11:19 PM

I don't recall any serious indication about Altgens 6 photograph being altered, but I must admit it is hard for me to comprehend SS agents and Ike Altgens "following a script" with bullets flying close by.


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#5 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:26 AM

Not that I am a photo expert, but I have had photographers (old school) looked at it and (without the negatvie) and they say it sure looks suspicious in several spots; the limo is very dark for being a convertible, the man with head almost gone looks strange, the man with the white shirt overlaping the left shoulder of Doorman, black mans head in strange position. But most strange is that they feel it has to be a cropped photo if it is taken with the lens that Altgens said he used. In other words, with that lens, we should have been able to see the entire TSBD in the original photo. Even if Im no photo analyst I find this very intriguing.



#6 Charles Drago

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:04 AM

We are coming perilously close to re-opening the necrotic tissue that is the disinformation/junk "research" of a certain snake oil salesman who calls himself "Cinque."

 

Without speaking for Greg, I can assure you that no such exercise will be permitted on this forum.  Nor will the posting of "Cinque" material in any form.


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#7 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:30 AM

I guess I am to "new" to understand what you mean, Charles. I dont work for or with Cinque, nor do I agree with his take on many things. But if this topic for some reason is off limit then I will honor that. Just dont lump me together with any other researcher than Pete Engwall.

#8 Greg Burnham

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:45 AM

Charles, our resident Chief of Counter Intelligence, has spoken and I back his analysis. Oswald in the doorway has now been raised by you, Staffan, in three separate posts on this forum. No topic can be mentioned repeatedly without it eventually becoming open for debate. It is not listed as off limits in our Rules of Engagement, but then again, nor are "President Slain By Martians" and "JFK Retired in Antigua with Elvis and Hoffa" listed either.

 

Some things should have no need to be expressly excluded. This subject is one of them.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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#9 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:54 AM

OK, my bad. I guess I better tone down on that then :)

#10 Greg Burnham

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:05 AM

The topic of authenticity of the Altgens photo is fine. However, debating the "Man in the Doorway" is not.


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Greg Burnham
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

Website:

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#11 Guest_Roger DeLaria_*

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:05 AM

I don't recall any serious indication about Altgens 6 photograph being altered, but I must admit it is hard for me to comprehend SS agents and Ike Altgens "following a script" with bullets flying close by.

I'm not saying the SS agents looking toward the tsbd were following a script, I don't know that that part would be rehearsed, the agents would have to be relied upon to look at precisely the right moment. Altgens taking a picture when he was supposed to, doing his little part, capturing the right moment. I think it would be a gamble with some tight coordination with no guarantees of getting the shot, or that the agents would look at the exact, required moment. If the "right" photo was not acquired, could something of value come out of his efforts, maybe. Or everything could have been scrapped, I guess. I understand, Staffan, that Altgens died pretty soon after? 



#12 Larry Trotter

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:45 PM

Not that I am a photo expert, but I have had photographers (old school) looked at it and (without the negatvie) and they say it sure looks suspicious in several spots; the limo is very dark for being a convertible, the man with head almost gone looks strange, the man with the white shirt overlaping the left shoulder of Doorman, black mans head in strange position. But most strange is that they feel it has to be a cropped photo if it is taken with the lens that Altgens said he used. In other words, with that lens, we should have been able to see the entire TSBD in the original photo. Even if Im no photo analyst I find this very intriguing.

Nor am I a photography expert Staffan, and I have many cell phone pictures of my thumb to prove it. But, I admit to having a strong opinion about the subject, so I looked around and saw a similar time frame picture/still from a different angle. Doing that, I was able to see that the Altgens 6 camera angle somewhat distorts positions of the doorway occupants, as it should have. In fact, I do believe the image referred to as "DoorwayMan", is actually closer to the center of the stairs than it appears in Altgens 6. And, the right side profile of the black gentleman's face explains it's distortion as well. Also, I believe the white shirt overlapping DM's shoulder clears up somewhat when seeing the more direct camera angle.


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#13 Karen Clift

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 02:57 AM

I'm new to JFK research so am not sure of the provenance of this particular picture but, as I understand it, the photo was sent out on the wire services within a few hours of the assassination.  I know that most people had their film taken by "authorities" either before it was developed or soon afterward.  With Altgens being a member of the press, did the "authorities" ever have their hands on the negative before it was printed and published?   


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"And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should ... withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know."      

-- John F. Kennedy


#14 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:58 AM

I believe that could be the case, Karen. Some people say the photo was published the same day, others say (and have shown) that no major paper (just small local papers had the image, which was false) had the photo until the next day. I am no expert on this, so I could have gotten it wrong. However, any image from that day must be viewed with suspicion IMO.


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#15 Karen Clift

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:14 AM

I found that Altgens 6 was shown on the CBS evening news at 6:30 Eastern time (5:30 Dallas time), just 5 hours after the shooting.  Additionally, Altgens apparently took the film back to his office for developing almost immediately after the assassination and it was sent out on the wire services shortly after that.

 

Considering that the film was developed at the AP office and was shown on CBS about 4 hours later, I don't see how anyone (other than AP) could have modified the picture.  I suspect that any perceived anomalies in the photo are due to the telephoto lens compressing the distance between objects.

 

http://www.youtube.c...9k7iy5Cs5oKrmXp

 

CBS had an interesting interpretation of the picture -- they thought JFK was embracing JBK. 

 

 

CBS_Altgens_zps81717cdf.jpg

 


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"And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should ... withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know."      

-- John F. Kennedy


#16 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 05:46 AM

YES, Karen, Cronkite showed a cropped version of Altgens 6 on the evening of the 22nd, thats right. But if you look at the CBS photo (A&) it is not the same as the "known" A6; one wonders why they cropped it.

#17 Larry Trotter

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:42 PM

Over many years, I have seen many, "many differently cropped" versions of Altgens6. I lean towards a simple reason, needing to be large enough to recognize the images, yet small enough to fit in any available room for viewing and/or publication. A tremendous amount of effort has been "spent" analyzing Altgens6 images, that to my knowledge has not shown any measurable purposeful alteration. JMO. FWIW.


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#18 Karen Clift

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:58 PM

I don't think there were any ulterior motives behind the cropping.  TV screens in 1963 were small and low resolution and the more stuff that was in the picture, the harder it would be to see. 

 

I would have cropped it exactly the same way in order for the audience to focus immediately on the key elements of the picture, place those elements in the center of the screen, and see them in the largest resolution.

 

Try not to look at it from the point of view of an assassination researcher who is looking for clues in every corner, but from the perspective of a TV viewer who wants to see what happened to the president.  The only thing they would have cared about is what was going on in his car.


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"And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should ... withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know."      

-- John F. Kennedy


#19 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 03:24 PM

Karen: "TV screens in 1963 were small and low resolution and the more stuff that was in the picture, the harder it would be to see."

Come on, Karen! This is no reasone to make the photo smaller. There is no good reason to crop a photo that will be published on TV.



#20 Karen Clift

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 04:34 PM

There is no good reason to crop a photo that will be published on TV.

 

We will just have to agree to disagree on this point. 

 

From my perspective, when the President of the United States is in the process of being assassinated, I see no practical value in wasting the very limited available screen space by showing extraneous information such as the fire escape on the Dal-Tex building.  


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"And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should ... withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know."      

-- John F. Kennedy





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