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Oswald, Oswald, Oswald... enough of Oswald already!


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#1 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 03:24 AM

I know of countles researchers that are deeply involved with Oswald's fate during 1963. Of course we can read a lot from the "framing" of Lee. But is it not too many of us involved with the "innocent" Lee in comparison with "the few" that looks for the real killers and others behind the crime? Oswald in the door or not, second Oswald's, Oswald was a poor shot etc. To me he was just (well, almost) another innocent man in Dealey Plaza.

 

How do you feel about this situation - or if you dont agree with it?

 



#2 Greg Burnham

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:28 AM

Interesting that you started a topic titled "Oswald, Oswald, Oswald..." only to suggest that we avoid the topic.

 

Based on your suggestion, I have no further reply. 


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#3 Brian Kelshaw

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:28 AM

Agreed. The more we focus on Lee the less we concentrate on those who set him up. Of course we have to pay him some attention, in the hope of finding the orchestrators. But in a sense, if your attention is directed to Lee, your name may as well be Mack, or Dunkel, or Judas...

#4 Charles Drago

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:22 PM

To eliminate LHO as a subject of our investigative focus is to descend into madness.

 

To whom do you refer when using the term "orchestrators"?  The assassination's Facilitators?  Sponsors?

 

Let's agree to utilize common terms of reference.

 

Are you suggesting that there is nothing of significance left to be discovered in further refined investigations of LHO?


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#5 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:40 PM

Sorry, folks, I dont mean this forum.

I meant it in a general sense. But i fail to understand why that is.



#6 Charles Drago

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 03:41 PM

To me [LHO] was just (well, almost) another innocent man in Dealey Plaza.

 

Only goes to show you that if you live long enough ... 


  • Larry Trotter likes this
"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#7 Charles Drago

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 05:57 PM

"Those who murdered JFK ... "

 

This is a fatally (to our investigations) vague statement.

 

Please be specific.  Are you referencing Sponsors, Facilitators, or Mechanics?  Or some combination thereof?

 

Serious, well-informed studies of LHO to date are invaluable for the manners in which they have brought us closer to identifying some of the key Facilitators of the murder.


  • Jim Hackett II and Larry Trotter like this
"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#8 Brian Kelshaw

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:18 PM

I think Staffan is suggesting that perhaps focusing on Oswald inevitably leads us where those who wish us not to know the truth feel most comfortable. I don't disagree that well informed studies of Lee have helped us to understand much more than was the case in the early years. On the other hand it could be said that as it has proved virtually impossible to positively identify the sponsors, facilitators, call them what you will, perhaps fifty years of chasing the patsy has let their trail well and truly cool. As such Staffan makes a valid point.

#9 Charles Drago

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:05 PM

 

Serious, well-informed studies of LHO to date are invaluable for the manners in which they have brought us closer to identifying some of the key Facilitators of the murder.

 

I don't buy it.  A study of LHO is a study of cover-ups, not the killing.  I seriously doubt that anyone in contact with Oswald had anything to do

with the murder of JFK.

 

And I seriously doubt that the earth isn't flat.

 

Mind-boggling madness.

 

End of exchange.


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#10 Larry Trotter

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:59 PM

I have felt, for some time now, based on what I have read and heard/seen, that a thorough knowledge of the person known as Lee Harvey Oswald could continue to open doors regarding the murder of POTUS John Fitzgerald Kennedy. That knowledge would include information about any and all impostors as well. I do agree that the "LHO in the TSBD doorway" was never a viable possibility worth any strong consideration, and I would suggest that if LHO was in the doorway on 11/22/63, it was before 12:25pm CST, and after 12:35pm CST, neither of which places him in any TSBD window on any floor with any rifle shooting at anyone. But, his history, along with his presence in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63, is to me, connected to the JFK assassination. JMO. FWIW.


Larry

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#11 Greg Burnham

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 11:27 PM

Contentless dismissals mean nothing.

 

The "exchange" never started, Charles,so how can you end it?  Your pronouncements on what is fatal or not fatal to this investigation add up to nothing without factual argument, which you certainly are shy of here.

 

I apply a negative template to Oswald.  I dismiss any of his connections as having a hand in the murder of JFK, a task which belonged to a different group based in US Army Special Operations Division.

 

Oh, the sound of someone's pet theory getting gored!

 

I'd watch yourself. One thing that Charles isn't shy of is an argument. A word to the wise.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

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“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

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#12 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 12:17 AM

Charles,

about "Sponsors, Facilitators, or Mechanics", do you believe CD Jackson played a role in this? 



#13 Phil Dragoo

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:08 AM

Staffan, you mention someone named Oswald.  I think I recall a fellow quite the target of the nation's Two Minutes Hate--still reviled by such merchants of venom as Patricia Johnson McMillan, Vincent Bugliosi, Gerald Posner, Larry Dunkel, and others of lesser infamy.

 

John Newman stipulated in his Oswald and the CIA, 2008 edition, James Angleton would've been atop the forces which so deftly manipulated the Oswald file.

 

The successful assassination of the 35th president without an immediate lightning rod for all of the nation's demand for closure is inconceivable.

 

Angleton is a facilitator of primary importance.  And, he was not privy to who struck John.

 

He pondered his life as one of the world's best liars and his fate to see them in Hell soon.

 

Where they may be filling him in.

 

Do we then suffer from OCD?

 

Oswald in the Confounded Doorway?

 

I do not.

 

But like Emerson and Thoreau I desire there be as many individuals as possible.

 



#14 Charles Drago

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:01 AM

Charles,

about "Sponsors, Facilitators, or Mechanics", do you believe CD Jackson played a role in this? 

 

A MAJOR role.  See Evica's A Certain Arrogance for details about Jackson.

 

From my Introduction to that book:

 

Before we are tempted to argue that the realities of war often require an honorable combatant to mimic, for a limited period and with noble intent, the darker designs of an evil foe, Professor Evica reminds us that, “Most of these genres and strategies were enlisted in the service of social, class, and political power.” He then identifies the likely director of the propaganda component of the aforementioned Oswald Game.

C. D. Jackson was “the psyops expert who organized and ran General Dwight David Eisenhower’s Psychological Warfare Division at SHAEF … an official of the Office of War Information … [and] a veteran of the North African campaign.”

Jackson’s career and its impact upon American history, heretofore marginally understood at best (he is widely identified as the Time-Life editor who purchased the Zapruder film) are major focuses of A Certain Arrogance. Nowhere is both the validity of Albert Einstein’s observation that “the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion” and the contemporary relevance of Professor Evica’s discoveries more clearly evident than in the author’s exposition of the Jackson oeuvre. In particular we are drawn to the discussion of how mass media early on was identified as a key weapon in the mind control arsenal.

 

Thus we can place Jackson within the top one-third of the Facilitator level.
 


  • Staffan H Westerberg likes this
"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#15 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:16 AM

Yes,Charles
Reading enough books that name will grow in size IMO. Question then becomes (within the top third of the Facilitator level) what in your opinion have the earmarks of Jackson? The cabinet out of Washington and the bridge from JFK to LBJ NSAM 263 to 273? Or was that planned by Bundy?
And where does Averell Harriman fit into this, if at all?

At a lower level I believe the planning of a "Zapruder film" could have been a child of Lansdale, since he had used films before (in the PI and Vinetnam)
But who was behind the planning of the Patsy? Angleton and his staff, with David Atlee Phillips?
Who planned the actual hit? David Sanches Morales and Bill Harvey? Rip Robertson and/or Tracy Barnes? I just dont know how to place these guys.

#16 Phil Dragoo

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:50 PM

My favorite indication of C.D. Jackson is in Eisenhower's speech October 8, 1952:

 

Our aim in cold war is not conquest of territory or subjugation by force. Our aim is more subtle, more pervasive, more complete. We are trying to get the world by peaceful means to believe the truth . That truth is that Americans want a world at peace, a world in which peoples shall have opportunity for maximum individual development.

 

    The means we shall employ to spread this truth are often called 'psychological.' Don't be afraid of that term just because it's a five-dollar, five-syllable word. 'Psychological warfare' is the struggle for the minds and wills of men.

 

    Many people think "psychological warfare" means just propaganda . . . But propaganda is not the most important part in this struggle.

    The present Administration has never yet been able to grasp the full import of a psychological effort put forth on a national scale.

 

    What would such a peace time or "cold war" national strategy mean? It would mean, in the first place, the selection of broad, national purposes and the designation within those purposes and the designation within those purposes of principles targets.

 

     Then it would mean this: Every significant act of Government should be so timed and so directed at a principle target, and so related to other government actions, that it will produce the maximum effect.  It means that our government in this critical matter will no longer be divided into air-tight compartments.

 

    It means that, in carrying out a national policy, every department and every agency of government that can make a useful contribution will bring its full strength to bear under as co-ordinated program.  We shall no longer have a Department of State that deals with foreign policy in an aloof cloister, a defense establishment that makes military appraisals in a vacuum; a Mutual Security Administration that, with sovereign independence, spends billions overseas. We must bring the dozens of agencies and bureaus into concerted action under an overall scheme of strategy ..."---

 

Here follows an account of a key event with the participation of Harriman and Bundy:

 

In August 1963, in an episode that still has not been entirely clarified, Kennedy’s subordinates in Washington took action during a weekend while the President was in Hyannis—and nearly every other senior administration figure was on vacation or away for the weekend—to launch a coup d’etat in Saigon.

 

Averell Harriman, assistant secretary of state for Far Eastern affairs, and two second-level figures, Roger Hilsman, who was to become Harriman’s successor, and one of Bundy’s young NSC staff, Michael Forrestal—all of them convinced that there had to be major change in Saigon—sent a cable to the Saigon embassy that said: U.S.Government cannot tolerate situation in which powerlies in Nhu’s hands. Diem must be given chance to rid himself of Nhu and his coterie and replace them with best military and political personalities available. If in spite of all your efforts, Diem remains obdurate and refuses, then we must face the possibility that Diem cannot be preserved.

 

Lodge was instructed to prepare the coup, and two disaffected and ambitious Vietnamese officers with whom the CIA was in touch were informed.
There was uproar in the White House when this action was discovered. It is not clear how much Kennedy was aware of such plans or what if anything he approved of. Harriman said, “the President himself had approved.” Bundy said afterward that “the misunderstanding  had been between the president and Forrestal.”

 

Kennedy was in any case furious and told Lodge personally to guarantee Diem’s security. He told Forrestal that he was “not worth firing.” A great effort was made to quiet the rumors spreading in Saigon. Kennedy told his staff that his policy was to seek changes by Diem that would permit America to assume a “posture of strict aloofness and limited cooperation” with a reformed government in Saigon.

However, the process that had been set in motion proved irreversible. On November 1, Diem’s own generals gave their president an ultimatum. Diem telephoned Lodge, who denied American involvement, said that it was 4:30 AM in Washington, that the “U.S. government could not possibly have a view” on what was happening, and that if he could do anything “for your physical safety, please call me.”

 

Diem and his brother were taken away and shot, their bodies later found mangled and their hands bound. One of the rebel generals informed the CIA that the two had committed suicide.

 

In Washington, when Kennedy heard of their deaths, Maxwell Taylor said, he “leaped to his feet and rushed from the room with a look of shock and dismay.”

The Diem brothers were killed on November 2, 1963.

 

On November 22, President Kennedy was killed in Dallas. With these events, the three men who provided the principal obstacles to the Americanization of the war in Vietnam were removed.

 

http://www.viet-stud...dyBook_NYRB.pdf

 

Regarding that, we recall E. Howard Hunt confessing to Congress he'd willingly forged cable traffic in the matter.  Oh how they love to blame Kennedy for killing Diem and Nhu.

 

Regarding Lansdale a practicioner of the devious in service to the crown, Prouty and Krulak see him in the Tramp photos.  Is it real or is it Rorschach?

 

As for Morales, he blabbed he'd taken "care of that SOB" then developed a fatal abdominal malady subsequent to his rapid recall to DC.

 

Harvey died within a month of Roselli who may have told Jack Anderson "we sent Ruby to silence Oswald".  At any rate Harvey may have at least contributed his successful special team concept, and was well-suited to wet work a la executive action, ZR RIFLE and all that.

 

Do you see Rip Robertson and Tracy Barnes in the Familiar Faces in Dealey Plaza? 

 

Frankly in all this we should recall Donald Gibson pointing up Walt Rostow as one of the handful who provided the Commission concept and sold it to LBJ who presented it to Hoover.

 

Was Acheson or was Harriman party to the Rostow conversation?

 

Through the magic of compartmentalization facilitators pass instruction to lesser facilitators and somewhere down the line to mechanics.

 

This wasn't the first rodeo for these men and had they violated tradecraft it would have been the last.

 

2re6u02.jpg



#17 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 08:08 AM

Yes, Cliff, after the body was stolen to Bethesda, gone were all the "Cubans", the "rogue agents", Ruby, the Dallas Police, Captain Fritz and Sheriff Decker... in secret replaced with Kellerman, Roberts, McGeorge Bundy, LeMay etc in Washington, while the entire Press had their sights locked in on Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas. Of course it was two major operations, perhaps more...



#18 Charles Drago

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 09:50 AM

CD Jackson was an accessory after the fact and a key Facilitator of the cover-up.

 

For the murder  -- professional killers were employed.

 

You aren't going to employ a Psy-War expert to kill a guy -- unless you want to scare him to death.

 

On of the impediments to the Citizen Investigation into the muder of JFK is the readiness of many to conflate the

killing with the cover-up.

 

Two different crimes, two different casts of characters except at the very top.

 

A study of the cover-up isn't usually a study of the killing -- although many appear to think it is.

 

A study of LHO isn't a study of the murder of JFK, it's a study of the cover-up..

 

A study of Z film alteration isn't a study of the killing, it's a study of the cover-up.

 

Given the possibility of pre-autopsy surgery, a study of JFK's head wound/s is not study of the killing, but the cover-up.

 

A study of improperly prepared medical evidence (autopsy report, autopsy photos) -- see above.

 

CE399...you get the picture..

 

The killing was precise, the cover-up was a conflicted mess.

 

The fact that this irrational post has been taken seriously by even one respondent forces me to act.

 

Varnell writes: 

 

CD Jackson was an accessory after the fact and a key Facilitator of the cover-up.

 

For the murder  -- professional killers were employed.

 

You aren't going to employ a Psy-War expert to kill a guy -- unless you want to scare him to death.

 

Beyond being a classic "straw man" argument -- in point of fact no one ever suggested that Jackson was a shooter -- this nonsense underscores its author's ignorance of the Evica-Drago conspiracy model (or any other sane, working hypothesis for the structure of the JFK assassination plot) and reveals a cognitive state for which the term "literal-minded" is far too complimentary.

 

 

Varnell writes:

 

On [sic] of the impediments to the Citizen Investigation into the muder [sic] of JFK is the readiness of many to conflate the

killing with the cover-up.

 

Two different crimes, two different casts of characters except at the very top.

 

The difficulty in formulating a response to this level of intellectual acuity puts me in mind of a favorite George Carlin observation: "Try explaining Hitler to a kid."  

 

Put simply:  The cover-up -- still holding after all these years -- was an essential component of the conspiracy from the moment of the latter's conception.  Without it, the act would not have been allowed to take place.  

 

Indeed, it may be argued that the cover-up has proven to be at least as beneficial to the agendas of the Sponsors and highest-level Facilitators as was the killing itself. 

 

Not to mention the fact that elements of the cover-up are noted prior to the Dealey Plaza ambush.

 

Varnell contradicts himself when he notes, "CD Jackson was an accessory after the fact and a key Facilitator of the cover-up."  Do the terms "accessories before the fact" and "accessories after the fact" have any meaning in Varnell land?  Or is the definition of "accessories" in the mind of this fashion-obsessed "researcher" limited to jackets, boots, shoes, ties, gloves, jewelry ... ?

 

In this instance "the fact" refers to the crimes of conspiracy to commit murder and murder.  Thus by his own admission, Varnell assigns to C.D. Jackson roles in those crimes and the collective cover-up, and thus refutes his earlier "Two different crimes, two different casts of characters except at the very top ... " absurdity.

 

Varnell writes:

 

The killing was precise, the cover-up was a conflicted mess.

 

Said "conflicted mess" has worked virtually flawlessly for more than a half-century.

 

 

In closing, please note that I am not addressing Varnell directly.  I should sooner debate cures for narcissism with Vince Palamara.  Rather, I am venting frustration brought on by the fact that such nonsense as Varnell proposes can still find it way to forums such as ours.


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#19 Greg Burnham

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:46 AM

"I tried to warn him, Sundance."


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“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

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#20 Greg Burnham

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 11:21 AM

Insults are not argument.

 

Charles is adept with the former, berift of the latter.

 

If the two of you would like to grind it out in the War Room section of the forum...have at it at this link. But do not destroy this thread's integrity.

 

Now that I'm thinking about it...this is a weird topic. It can be about anything except Oswald, no?


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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