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The Grassy Knoll Trajectory


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#41 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:25 PM

Yes, Gordon, there are many aspects to concider. For one thing, we dont really know (other than what we see in Altgens 6) JFK's position in relation to Connally in the car.


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#42 Gordon Gray

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 11:09 PM

Of course we do. There are numerous photo's of the motor cade that clearly show JFK to the far right of the  back seat of the limo and Connolly inboard of him. The Z film shows this prior to the initial shots, and while some dismiss the Z film in it's entirety due to evidence of alteration, I do not.


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#43 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 11:36 PM

And you "know" these photos to show the real and exact circumstances of where JFK was positioned in re´lation to Connally? I am not so sure...



#44 Gordon Gray

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 01:50 PM

I don't see how anyone can view the many photos and films of the moto cade in it's entirety, as well as the Z film and not conclude that Kennedy prior to being shot, was seated to the far right of the rear seat. Unless they have agenda.



#45 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 11:33 PM

"Unless they have agenda." ???

Gordon, If you mean that JFK sat in the back seat then I am with you (of course). But if you think you can pinpoint his exact position any given second then I wish you luck. All it takes is one manipulated photo or film and all bets are off. That is my point. And dont insult me with garbage like "unless they have (an) agenda". That is pretty low of you.
 



#46 Greg Burnham

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 08:17 AM

Spread out!

 


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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#47 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 01:24 PM

  :) :D



#48 Bob Prudhomme

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 02:17 AM

Hello Matt Hawkins

 

I have to disagree with statements made by you in post # 36, regarding silencing weapons with supersonic muzzle velocities and frangible bullets.

 

First, not only is it possible to silence the muzzle blast from a supersonic cartridge, it is done on a regular basis, and at ranges well in excess of 100 metres. I believe what you meant is that, while it is possible to silence the muzzle blast of a supersonic cartridge, it is impossible to silence the crack of the bullet as it breaks the sound barrier. It may seem pointless to silence a supersonic cartridge because of this but, in reality, silencing the muzzle blast makes it quite difficult to locate the source of a bullet.

 

It must be remembered, though, that there is a way for a sniper to also silence the sonic crack of a supersonic bullet. If a sniper takes a shot from a silenced rifle at a target from a few hundred metres away, the velocity of the bullet will have dropped to subsonic levels by the time it reaches the target. At this point, the only sound heard will be the bullet impacting the target.

 

As for frangible bullets, please tell me what you believe constitutes a frangible bullet.


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"He was always cold, but the Land of Gold seemed to hold him like a spell,
Though he'd often say, in his homely way, that he'd "Sooner live in Hell....."

"The Cremation of Sam McGee" by Robert W. Service

#49 Matt Hawkins

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 04:49 AM

Bob

 

I consider frangible bullets as very small bbs glued together. For this type of bullet, the entrance wound is massive, perhaps a small subset of the bbs exits. I did not say this type of bullet for sure was used, however it could have been used for the head shot)s.

This is interesting, in reference to a .45 acp slug.

http://forum.assassi...er-gerald-hill/

 

 

I am aware of other exotic types of bullets.

As you point out, the supersonic 'crack' cannot be silenced.

I think 'suppress' is a better choice of words than 'silence' when referring to a supersonic round in a rifle.

There are many handgun silencers for sale for those who have the permit.

There are supressors available for rifles (some people call them silencers, but they are not).

147 gr 9mm was designed specifically so it could be silenced

 

You make good points regarding reasons for using a suppressor on a rifle.

 

I don't believe there are frangible rifle bullets that create a conventional entrance wound, then stop in the body and totally disintegrate leaving no exit wound or bullet in the body. I have read the arguments. I do believe silencers (where witnesses would hear almost nothing) could have been used. Most likely a silenced 45 ACP.

I believe frangible bullets could have been used by one shooter; but they are not necessary to support the argument that the final head shot came from the front.

 

Edit to add- revolvers cannot be silenced. If a 45 ACP round, or rounds, was fired, the shell would have been ejected to the ground. As this is a disadvantage of a semi-automatic pistol or rifle.



#50 Bob Prudhomme

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 10:33 AM

Frangible bullets were first developed as target shooting rounds for indoor ranges. They were not made from small BB's glued together but, rather, from lead powder compressed together; often with sand in the base of the bullet inside the jacket. The idea was to make a safe indoor bullet that would instantly turn back to powder if it struck something hard like steel or concrete, rather than ricocheting and harming a bystander. There were many types of frangible/short range cartridges made for the 6.5mm Carcano, the last to be produced being known as the M.37 Magistri.

 

There are, indeed, modern frangible bullets that make entrance wounds no bigger than a full metal jacket bullet would, just as there are soft point and hollow point bullets that make very small entrance wounds. To see these lethal frangible bullets, go to www.DRTAmmo.com .These bullets make a small entry wound and completely disintegrate into a cloud of metal powder within a few inches of the entry point. As all of the energy of the bullet is transferred to the wound, due to the abrupt stop of the bullet and its disintegration into dust, the bullet does not exit and the wound damage is massive and lethal; far in excess of the damage produced by a hollow point bullet.

 

Another misconception common amongst researchers is that an "exit" wound is where a bullet actually exits a victim, and that this exit wound must be perfectly in line with the entrance wound. Try to imagine the massive pressure wave created by a frangible bullet disintegrating into a cloud of metal dust inside a cranial cavity and coming to a complete stop. The "exit" wound witnessed at Parkland Hospital was very likely the result of this massive pressure wave blowing out a weak point in the skull.


"He was always cold, but the Land of Gold seemed to hold him like a spell,
Though he'd often say, in his homely way, that he'd "Sooner live in Hell....."

"The Cremation of Sam McGee" by Robert W. Service

#51 Matt Hawkins

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 01:03 PM

Frangible bullets were first developed as target shooting rounds for indoor ranges. They were not made from small BB's glued together but, rather, from lead powder compressed together; often with sand in the base of the bullet inside the jacket. The idea was to make a safe indoor bullet that would instantly turn back to powder if it struck something hard like steel or concrete, rather than ricocheting and harming a bystander. There were many types of frangible/short range cartridges made for the 6.5mm Carcano, the last to be produced being known as the M.37 Magistri.

 

There are, indeed, modern frangible bullets that make entrance wounds no bigger than a full metal jacket bullet would, just as there are soft point and hollow point bullets that make very small entrance wounds. To see these lethal frangible bullets, go to www.DRTAmmo.com .These bullets make a small entry wound and completely disintegrate into a cloud of metal powder within a few inches of the entry point. As all of the energy of the bullet is transferred to the wound, due to the abrupt stop of the bullet and its disintegration into dust, the bullet does not exit and the wound damage is massive and lethal; far in excess of the damage produced by a hollow point bullet.

 

Another misconception common amongst researchers is that an "exit" wound is where a bullet actually exits a victim, and that this exit wound must be perfectly in line with the entrance wound. Try to imagine the massive pressure wave created by a frangible bullet disintegrating into a cloud of metal dust inside a cranial cavity and coming to a complete stop. The "exit" wound witnessed at Parkland Hospital was very likely the result of this massive pressure wave blowing out a weak point in the skull.

 

The first frangible bullets were made by individuals long before they are commercially available.  The inventor of magsafe ammo was handloading individual cartridges when he started. They are known for creating explosive entrance wounds. There are numerous videos online. When I said glue together, that gets the idea across in plain English. Each of the major manufacturers such as Glaser or Magsafe, provides a description of how they are made. If you want to say glued and sintered, go ahead.

 

The major problem with fragmented ammo for police work is that it does not reliably provide the FBI recommended depth of penetration. If a 'magic' bullet was invented, that would  enter the body, then explode without exiting, every police force in the world would be using it. Overpenetration is a terrible problem that police currently address, as best they can, by using hollow point bullets. Innocent people still are killed by bullets that exited the bad guy (as one reference, recent police shootings in NYC).

 

Could a Carcano rifle round have existed that would do this? We can write the editor of every gun magazine in the US, you will not get any support for that idea. It is true that companies such as DRT are developing fragmented bullets that penetrate. However, the idea is that the bullet, after it exits, would not ricochett off a hard surface. You can design a bullet to essentially explode on impact, or you can design it to have desirable penetration - the police/FBI standard is 12-18 inches. 12 minimum 18 is better. No bullet can do both. If you disagree, post pictures of the bullet in ballistic gelatin tests, and we can discuss further.

 

http://greent.com/40...ral/fbitest.htm

http://www.magsafeonline.com/

http://www.corbon.co...ser-safety-slug

 

The glaser safety slug was originally used by Air Marshals.

Many videos showing the explosiveness of frangible bullets - do a search on "fragmented ammo youtube"

Often frangible bullets create a massive surface wound 4-5 inches deep. Which does not meet FBI/police standards. If we, for point of discussion, considered the Bethesda autopsy to be accurate, JFK could have been killed by a frangible bullet hitting the right side of his head, with a resulting small exit wound. The shot would have been from the front, such as, only as an example, the Grassy Knoll, or from behind the fence. The shot to the right upper back and exiting the throat, would have been from something like the second floor of the TSBD or the Dal-Tex building.

 

Edit to add - one persons opinion of the DRT ammo:

http://www.gunrights...or-home-defense

from post number 8 (2011):

"I will confess to ignorance on the horribly named DRT round other than to comment that John Farnam recently shared the news that CorBon will not be producing it after all because it failed to measure up to its promises."



#52 Bob Prudhomme

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 02:57 PM

"However, the idea is that the bullet, after it exits, would not ricochet off a hard surface."

 

I'm afraid you fail to grasp the concept of just exactly what a frangible bullet is. If you look closely at the DRT bullets, you will see that each bullet has a small hollow point on its nose. I'm not sure if you understand the mechanics of a hollow point bullet but, it is not the relatively thin skull bone that makes them open up. I have shot many deer with hollow point bullets, in the head, and the entry wound through skull bone is the same diameter as the bullet.

 

Hollow points only open up when fluid and semi-fluid matter enter the hollow point cavity and begin exerting hydraulic pressure inside this cavity. In the case of the DRT frangible bullets, this hydraulic pressure is great enough after two inches of penetration to cause complete disintegration of the compressed metal core of the bullet into a cloud of metal dust that does NOT exit its victims.

 

http://www.gunsameri...t-frangible-223

 

Edit: This link does not seem to be working. To see this article, Google "drt ammo entry wounds skulls" and look at the Guns America blog on shooting wild boars.


"He was always cold, but the Land of Gold seemed to hold him like a spell,
Though he'd often say, in his homely way, that he'd "Sooner live in Hell....."

"The Cremation of Sam McGee" by Robert W. Service

#53 Jim Hackett II

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 04:52 PM

Greg,

:D :D



#54 Phil Dragoo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:34 PM

Greg, in re your #46, Peter Sellers:

 



#55 Greg Burnham

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 08:36 AM

"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here. This is the war room!"

 

:D


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Greg Burnham
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

Website:

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#56 Bob Prudhomme

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:31 AM

A classic!


"He was always cold, but the Land of Gold seemed to hold him like a spell,
Though he'd often say, in his homely way, that he'd "Sooner live in Hell....."

"The Cremation of Sam McGee" by Robert W. Service

#57 Michael Cross

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 10:35 AM

 The one thing that sticks out from the witness testimonials is that the first shot sounded like a firecracker. I've seen discussion elsewhere online suggesting that a high velocity shot hitting glass makes just such a sound. 

I've been wondering about the crack a supersonic bullet produces.  I haven't heard one personally, but this issue keeps coming up and seems a possible explanation for the "firecracker" report.



#58 Gordon Gray

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 02:10 PM

It seems there are a number of possible explanations for the firecracker sound: bullet striking pavement as seen by several witnesses, bullet striking freeway sign, sound of sonic boom from a suppressed rifle, sound of bullet penetrating windshield, sound of paralytic flecette being fired.



#59 Greg Burnham

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 02:38 PM

The flechette dart makes no sound resembling a firecracker. At most it makes a hissing sound. It does not require an "explosion" for propulsion. Rather, it is propelled with solid rocket fuel that is simply ignited, electronically, at launch.


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Greg Burnham
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

Website:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Main Page

 

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AssassinationOfJFK.net Research Forum

 
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#60 Richard Hocking

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 09:14 PM

Just to clear up some possible misunderstanding, the President's vehicle was moving west on Elm Street?

Harold

Because Elm St. curves as the Limo approaches the Triple Underpass,  the Limo is facing nearly SouthWest at the time of the head shot.

LimoOrientationonElm_zps21c6d268.jpg

This has important ramifications when considering a shooter located on the South Knoll ...  One of these being the shooter would have the sun at his back, forcing the Secret Service and Limo occupants to look directly into the Sun when facing the South Knoll shooting position.

 

Another impact of the Limo facing SW is that a frontal shot on JFK is possible from the South Knoll.

 

Edit:  Graphic did not load properly originally.






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