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The Grassy Knoll Trajectory


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#1 Liam Kelly

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 11:19 PM

I have always had a question concerning the fatal headshot and the possibility of it being fired from the picket fence.

Given an entry wound to the president’s right front slightly above the temple and to the side, the trajectory from the fence would see an exit wound on the left , rear side of JFKs head instead of the right rear.

In fact a straight trajectory from entrance to exit would place the shot origin somewhere closer to James Tague’s position.

After all, the fence was to the right of the President.

Has anyone come across any ballistics info that deals with deflection of bullets in such a case and particularly the behaviour of frangible bullets and their capacity or otherwise to deflect the momentum and force at a tangent to their angle of origin at the point of impact?

I would be interested to hear some thoughts.


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#2 Donald Manning

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 04:54 AM

Hi Liam,

I've understood the sound reasoning behind a trajectory originating from the south but I myself haven't been able to fully embrace it. I wouldn't attempt to rule it out though and just so it's clear I'm just not that inspired by the distance to target and the lack of cover but I'm no assassin and never have I dealt in black ops.

Compared to the north knoll the south falls short in many areas and the most obvious being the stacks of circumstantial evidence to support it.

 

I really don't have it in me at present to spend more time thinking about the head wounds in great detail but what I will say is we cannot be sure where the entrance wound was in the front and neither can we know exactly where on the back of the head the bullet hit to cause the blow out, doesn't have to be exactly in the centre.

The cartoon like blob and resulting flap in Zap could be hiding an entrance site and that would suggest a hit above the ear and given the angle from his head to an area about halfway down the fence or more an exit in the back would not raise an eyebrow.

 

As much as I hate to knock Badgeman any more than I may already have here, that trajectory would indeed seem to put an exit on the left side and also Jackie in extreme danger and on the LOS itself.

Jackie was a serious obstacle, impossible to ignore to any sane person involved and certain areas of the plaza cannot grant the needed allowance and it's one reason why BM would have to have missed.

 

I think there is an angle somewhere further down the fence that still makes complete sense and like I say I'm personally more drawn to that than the south side or indeed the overpass as a whole.

I know that Sherry considers what we see in Zap to bare all the hallmarks of a typical entrance with accompanying back splatter but I've not been able to get down with that yet either.



#3 Harold Martin

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 10:12 AM

Just a passing comment on south versus north knoll.  I have read much of what William "Tosh" Plumlee wrote about his participation in the assassination.

He claims that the actual head shot came from the south knoll which is where he was stationed as a part of team to quell the assassination.

What I find interesting is that no investigation of the south knoll areas was ever attempted by law enforcement.  But then again, they did not seem too interested in finding the truth of the assassination.

Take it for what its worth I suppose.

Harold



#4 Harold Martin

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 10:13 AM

One more thought.  I believe it was Dr. McClellan who stated he saw a wound of entrance in the left temple.  Maybe his account is more accurate?

Harold



#5 Liam Kelly

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 11:59 PM

thats interesting Harold and good points...and Donald you are correct, the South Knoll does not look a good place for an assassin ,

despite the fact that the trajectory makes more sense.

I have just put the issue aside because the wounds are not certain as you say.

I measured some angles and place a shooter approx where the underpass meets the south knoll.

Of course , the lack of cover presents a problem and I concluded that the only way you could do it would

be from a covered truck or van.

So..I checked the Z film and sure enough there is such a vehicle right there at the time.

But thats about as far as I have thought about it as its not even a theory its just some thinking.

However , having said that, there is no doubt that the presidents head goes back and to the left.

That movement certainly does favour the picket fence.

As far as badge man is concerned I dont accept any of that and didnt the moment I looked at it.

But..there is ,in the Morman photo something else which is way more sinister.

And that is the shape above the fence.

When it is enlarged it looks exactly like a person with a cowboy type hat with their eyes at fence level.

It truly is astounding.

I have seen a photo of someone standing in the exact location, with a hat and pointing a rifle at the right spot

and the effect is electrifying..it looks exactly like the shape we see in Morman photo.

Including the slight angle of the head as you would expect with one eye through a sight.

To me it remains the most suspicious item in any photo or film of the day.

In fact the HSCA placed a shooter at this exact spot.

(whatever you think of the Dictabelt stuff)

 

However I was asking in this post because it would be nice to know how a frangible bullet

might behave when it struck a skull tangentally.

Its very frustrating of course when we have such a poor and suspect

investigation of the evidence.



#6 Phil Dragoo

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 03:17 AM

Liam, was it John Judge who said the bullets came from the Pentagon?

 

I've gained insight from Sherry Fiester, Enemy of the Truth, and Anthony DeFiore who has done an analysis of the frontal throat shot.

 

My interim conception is a throat shot through the windshield from the Terminal Annex lot at Z-225.

 

Four-point-eight seconds later at Z-313 a right temporal entry also from the Terminal Annex lot.

 

I posit a vehicle used as a sniper's hide a la Beltway Snipers in DC 2002.

 

In each case we look down on a diagramming of the head, limo, Elm Street via scale drawing and aerial photo.

 

We have Custer who described to Horne and Gunn a missing C-3/4 x-ray showing metal fragments from the thoat entry.

 

McClelland draws the avulsive occipital-parietal exit while Perry-to-Kilduff and mortician Robinson describe the right temporal entry.

 

We avoid the left exit which was seen by no one save a single outlier; ditto left entry.

 

This analysis is based on my confidence in the integrity and professional attention to detail I find in Fiester, DeFiore, McClelland, Perry, Robinson regarding this subject.

 

A WerBell suppressor would have been used and nothing untoward was either seen or heard from the source of the two significant shots by the same world-class professional shooter.

 

I stipulate that this analysis is embedded in a realization that the assassination was the act of a pre-existing and extant power locus beyond any false-sponsor identifier popular in the superficial discussion.

 

The Dallas visit was mentioned by LBJ in April (23d) and was determined in time and space by the date of the Houston dinner and the Trade Mart luncheon venue.

 

The route dictated the ambush and the best location was deeply concealed beneath the patsy frameup and the various overt shooting positions.

 

2duimwz.jpg

2s68u3m.jpg

2vdi92v.jpg

141jitw.jpg


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#7 Liam Kelly

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 03:55 AM

Hi Phil and all,

I belive thats correct.I couldnt swear to Juge saying that but it sure sounds like it and

I have a memory somewhere which seems to be in harmony with that.

 

I also agree wholeheartedly about the Fiester and DiFiore material.

In fact when I came across their anaysis, I was glad to see someone else taking up my own thoughts

with a professional expertise.

 

Your analysis does indeed provide an interesting perception and I also believed always, that

the use of silencers or suppresors for the 'real shots' was highly likely.

As a matter of fact, one of my initial enquiries years ago was whether silencers for rifles existed at the time.

Which of course led me to Werbell.

 

I also have thought , that in any professional hit , that each gunman would only ever fire one shot, unless

his cover was somewhat assured by some mechanism.

 

And I do think in sync with you , when you  discuss in terms of the professionalism of the hit men and the "job" in general.

I think thats important because some researchers put forward a CIA or government responsible theory but then

present a far too amateurish crime scenario for my liking.



#8 Ray Mitcham

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 06:10 AM

One more thought.  I believe it was Dr. McClellan who stated he saw a wound of entrance in the left temple.  Maybe his account is more accurate?

Harold

These are the other people who also said there was a wound in the left temple, Harold.

 

  1. Dr. Gene Coleman Akin, Resident Anesthesiologist 

                  [a.k.a. Solomon Ben Israel]:
 6 H 65 and 67 / testimony---"The back of the right occipitalparietal
 portion of his head was shattered, with brain substance extruding."; "I
 assume the right occiptalparietal region was the exit, so to speak, that
 he had probably been hit on the other side of the head, or at least
 tangentially in the back of the head "; "this [the neck wound] must have
 been an entrance wound ";

 

  1. Surgeon David Stewart:
    a) "New Lebanon, Tennessee, Democrat", 3/30/67 ,
    4/10/67 "The Joe Dolan Show", KNEW radio, Oakland, CA and
    c) "Post Mortem", pp. 60-61---Dolan said he was particularly concerned
    with the "statement about the shot" that killed JFK "coming from the
    front." Dr. Stewart said, "Yes, sir. This was the finding of all the
    physicians who were in attendance. There was a small wound in the left
    front of the President's head and there was a quite massive wound of
    exit at the right backside of the head and it was felt by all of the
    physicians at the time to be a wound of entry which went in the front.";

 

39)Priest Oscar L. Huber [deceased 1975] (administered the last rites):
WR 55, 7 H 489, 21 H 159, 160, 195, 233: WC references for Huber. Huber was interviewed 11/24/63 on WFAA and 11/25/63 on WBAP/ Texas News (see "Kennedy In Texas" video 1984). The 11/24/63 "Philadelphia Sunday Bulletin" reported that Father Huber said that JFK had a terrible wound over his left eye [see "Best Evidence", p. 46, and "Who's Who in the JFK Assassination", p. 202]; 8/26/64 and 9/20/64 interviews with William Manchester ("The Death of a President", numerous, inc. p.
216)---performed the sign of the cross on JFK's forehead, evidently
still intact; interviewed by Jim Bishop ("The Day Kennedy Was Shot", p.
684)

 

47) Asst. Press Secretary Malcolm Kilduff:
a) see reference "B"to Dr. Burkley, above;
"Time" magazine, 11/28/88: article by Hugh Sidey, p. 45, re: Kilduff,
on 11/22/63: "I saw that man's head." He sobbed. "I couldn't believe it.
I nearly died. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.";
c) "High Treason 2", pp. 443-450: 4/17/91 interview with Harry
Livingstone-" it [the head wound] was clearly in the left side of his
head I do not accept the so-called 'Magic' Bullet Theory No, I can't
buy that one I have [sic] been swimming with Connally in the pool at the
White House, and I saw a clean scar in his back I talked to Connally
about it several times, and his feeling on that and mine are precisely
the same [this squares with what Sam Kinney told me and what Connally
himself insisted on for years] It was a very short period of time
between the second and third shot the left part of his forehead looked
like---when I got over to the car---looked like two pounds of ground
beef the left part of his forehead They found that piece of skull, over
by the curb, either later that afternoon or the following morning, with
hair on it.";

 

49) Dr. Lito Porto:
a) "High Treason", p. 460---"The first doctor to see what he said was a
bullet entry wound near the left temple was Dr. Leto (sic) Porto."[only
reference to Dr. Lito Porto];
9/8/98 call from Dr. Boris Porto to Vince Palamara (relaying info.
from his father)- His father said that "he needs to keep his mouth
quiet"but referred me to Drs. Charlie Baxter and Jim Carrico; Boris: "he
was there he was the neurosurgery chief resident, the first one to come
out of that program"---Kemp Clark was "overseeing my father";



#9 Harold Martin

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 09:37 AM

Hi Ray,

Thanks for the follow-up info.  To address Liam and Phil, there certainly could have been two or more headshots which would or could account for the rear/ to the left movement if one accepts the Z film being valid.

Harold



#10 Harold Martin

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 09:38 AM

Oh and Liam, if you look at the photo of the south knoll, you will notice a parking lot.  some cover with a vehicle and a fast escape, both essential for a professional sniper.



#11 Donald Manning

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 04:14 PM

I know the Cancellare image pretty well but I've have to admit I'd never looked at the truck that hard and if I ever noticed the same one in Zapruder before now I couldn't recall it.

I suppose I have to admit also that that Cancellare image is also where I get my impression of the south knoll and must be easily over forty seconds after the hit so something could have changed up in that parking lot also and even the truck itself appears to be moving slightly in Zap.

 

Doesn't the guy standing out his car door closest to the truck in the moving footage appear to be looking south away from the unfolding events on Elm?

Could be bad lighting but still 

 

ZapTruck_zpsae04e25c.png

 

 

Just on the back and to the left movement Liam.

Because we have so few frames to study I think it's too difficult to say for sure that the head was moving left initially.

I have been tending to agree with another's observation that in fact the head goes straight back first, away from the way his body was facing, then only falls left when the man's back hits the seat but again, it's so quick.

 

 

 



#12 Liam Kelly

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 06:28 PM

Hi Donald, thats interesting, a bit hard to tell for me but interesting.

And yes, the problem with the headshot  is its also hard to tell exactly whats

going on.When I first saw the z film many years ago like many others I looked

closely at the headshot exhaustively and I finaly had to conclude there was something

unnatural about the head movement.

I could not see any complete absolute explanation of what was happening.

It almost looked as though JFK kinda leaned into the shot (at a fraction of a second).

I also had to conclude there is something wrong with the frame/s there.

The movement just doesnt look possible or normal to me.

And yes the guy does indeed appear to be facing ther other way to me.

I find it strange that, given all the 'weird and wonderful' theories over the years

that I havent come across any serious look at the south knoll in particular.

The trajectory seems better, there is possible cover and there are getaway possibilities.

I read once in a forum that a guy in Dallas had gone to the south knoll with friends when he was a teenager

and that they noticed when they let off firecrackers there , that tourists over at the nth knoll were

acting like the sound was coming from there instead.

Apparently they tried this a number of times before the police came over and moved them along.

Doesnt proove anything of course but I do wonder why it seems to be too quickly dismissed or ignored.



#13 Gordon Gray

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 11:24 AM

While not impossible a shot from the South Knoll area would have been extremely difficult. The shooter would have to fire at the exact moment when Kennedy was not obscures by the driver, Nelly or John Connolly, or even Jackie, at the moment of Z313. Assuming they wanted to avoid collateral damage as much as possible, positions to the right of the vehicle presented much better options. Also assuming straight line trajectories would depend on the type of weapon and ammunition used. I find nothing inconsistent with the head wounds and at least one shot from the storm drain on Elm. St. e,g..  I have always felt that the occipital wound decribed by Humes and company was real. They were much too adamant about it and too resistant to having it's location changed. I imagine this was produced by the same or similar weapon that struck Connolly from the rear, because both were through and through shots. This would have created extreme fracturing at the rear of the head and a subsequent shot from the right front involving a small caliber frangible bullet, would have caused the weakened rear too explode outward.



#14 Brian Kelshaw

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 05:47 AM

I think the evidence for shots from the south knoll is compelling, as Sherry Fiester says, if you take into account the direction the car was headed and the position of Kennedy within the car, he is most likely facing the south knoll at Z313. As Gordon says, Jackie is the only problem there, as would appear to (at least partially) block that shot. Badge Man couldn't possibly have been responsible for any of the head-shots I don't think, at least not any that hit! I was looking forward to Tosh Plumlee's fictional account but whilst typing this reply Amazon have just informed me that "Deep Cover, Shallow Graves" is no longer available - which suggests it's been pulled. Hhhm, only in JFK world could I start to get suspicious when a seemingly innocuous novel fails to materialise, after virtually certain publication was announced.



#15 Liam Kelly

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 06:12 AM

They saw you coming Brian!.

But ditto on Sherry Fiester.

 

I meant to post this pic earlier.

Its is the morman photo  enlarged.

This is what I said whas the most sinister shot of the day.

 

hat_fence.jpg



#16 Harold Martin

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 08:05 AM

Just to clear up some possible misunderstanding, the President's vehicle was moving west on Elm Street?

Harold



#17 Brian Kelshaw

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 09:51 AM

Harold.

Yes, West on Elm Street, though many aerial maps and photos have East at the top and West at the bottom.

#18 Gordon Gray

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 11:01 AM

If a South Knoll shooter was positioned at the corner of the overpass and the south parking lot, his view through his scope would be not dissimilar to the Altgens Photo. Picture the limo in the position of the SS follow up car and imagine trying to shoot an agent in the right rear seat of that vehicle. Not and easy shot, no?



#19 Brian Kelshaw

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 02:36 AM

IMGA0216.jpg

Gordon, hopefully this will help. Not so difficult for a pro with a scope I wouldn't have thought, especially as the Secret Service obligingly slowed and positioned the car so nicely for him. I took this photo last November at about 7:30 in the morning. I have since photo-shopped the car out of the picture as I realised there isn't a person in the whole shot. It makes a nice Desktop Wallpaper.


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#20 Harold Martin

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 11:55 AM

To continue the directions, the smoke, located by 6 or railroad workers as under the trees of the North knoll, does not preclude another shot from the South knoll.

A shooter located at the south end of the Triple Overpass, either the on top of the overpass or in the parking lot, would still have a shot at President Kennedy, do to his being pulled somewhat to his left by Jackie.

The South knoll also rises from the street similar to the North knoll.  As for speculation, I prefer to leave that to others.  There are so few uncontested facts, that speculation merely serves to complicate what might have happened.

I believe there was no investigation by law enforcement concerning the South knoll.

Harold






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