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How Did JFK's Body Arrive at Bethesda Naval Hospital Twenty Minutes Prior to the Andrews AFB Motorcade?


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#1 Doug Horne

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:19 PM

In July of 2013 I published this essay explaining how JFK's body arrived at the Bethesda Naval Hospital morgue 20 minutes prior to the Andrews AFB motorcade containing the bronze Dallas casket:

 

http://assassination...hat-did-happen/


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#2 Stan Wilbourne

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:51 AM

Doug has another excellent article on the medical evidence on the main site.

 

Here's the link:

 

Doug Horne: Most JFK Medical Evidence Would Not Be Admissible at Trial



#3 Phil Dragoo

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 02:48 AM

I found The AF1 Tapes and Subsequent Events at Andrews AFB on November 22, 1963: What Was Supposed to Happen vs. What Did Happen to be the clearest account yet of a critical passage of the coverup when it was molten steel.

 

I read David Lifton, Best Evidence, and remarked to our friend a veteran of Army intelligence that Liebeler was certainly guilty of obstruction of justice in his treatment of Lifton's legitimate concerns.  "We knew the Liebelers; had dinner with them; they're very nice people," and this from the milint veteran who confided, "Kennedy was very dangerous, very dangerous."

 

The Best Evidence account of the arrival and journey of the bronze casket only to wait at the entrance while the shipping casket was offloaded was a bare outline but a chilling introduction to deadly intrigue, the mechanics of a coup.

 

In Inside the ARRB the outline is presented with greater depth but is still tabular, a two-dimensional rendering.

 

In this extant essay the admixture of desperate communication, e.g. "black Cadillac" and "the body" are vivid.  The logistics dispatch speculation like fog in the morning sun.

 

I've seen some criticize this timeline, carp and chirp and quip and quibble, but for me, it is solid down to the ground.

 

And Robinson and Reed saw Humes' limited craniotomy.

 

The latter having been my number one choice for enhanced interrogation. 

 

With scholarship such as Horne's we'll have the pointillist evidence fused into a high-definition image.

 

 



#4 Gordon Gray

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 09:52 AM

Horne's argument is very compelling. I would be interested in knowing the departure and arrival times of the C130. One question I have is just how "dirty " were the SS agents involved? I think most of their actions can be regarded as benign. Getting the body back to the security of Washington while circumstances are unknown and chaotic, and not making JBK wait hours in Dallas. Stowing the body in the luggage compartment in order to avoid Dallas authorities, seems credible to me. Also the coffin roulette as a result of Jackie's decision to take the cardiac ambulance, all seems credible, without sinister implications. The LN idea did not really originate until later that afternoon, most likely with Hoover. I doubt it was a prearranged strategy that the SS were operating with at the time of the confrontation with Rose. Once we get to the pre autopsy surgery, then Kellerman's role becomes questionable. What I find curious about him, is it would seem he would have to have had knowledge of pre autopsy surgery, but in his WC testimony he was adamant about the rear head wound, the flurry of shots and multiple shooters. Another question I have is that at some point prior to the arrival of the Honor Guard, the body had to be placed back into the bronze casket, carried to the ambulance, and placed back inside. Who did this and when was it done. If it involved any to the corpsman present, then it is surprising none have made mention of this. In fact to my knowledge there is no witness to this event. Could this have involved only the autopsy doctors, and SS agents, without anyone else observing? 



#5 Doug Horne

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:24 PM

Thank you, Phil Dragoo and Gordon Gray, for your interest and for taking the time to read this essay.

 

Phil, I appreciate your supportive comments very, very much.  It's gratifying.  I was hoping to make up for the brief, almost cursory trreatment I gave this subject in my book, with this essay.  I'm glad to read that I succeeded in doing so.

 

Gordon, I estimate JFK's  body was placed back into the Dallas Casket at approximately 7:30 PM---after the cranial surgery performed to expand his wounds and remove evidence, and after the 5 or 6 skull x-rays were taken, followed by the initial set of photographs using the head brace (which was not used after 8 PM, and which no one saw at the autopsy between 8 and 11 PM).  There was a witness to the removal of his body from the morgue who spoke about it later.  In Tom Robinson's 1977 HSCA interview (per the HSCA transcript of the tape recording), he complained that "the body was taken...and the body never came."  (I'm quoting here from memory.  See Chapters 6 and 13 of my book for the precise quote and its implications vis-a-vis the timeline.)  His HSCA interviewers did not pursue with him what this meant, but now his remarks seem very suggestive (to me) that he witnessed the body being removed from the morgue (after no doubt being given some B.S. excuse), and that he then became quite uncomfortable about the delay that ensued while he kept waiting for JFK's body to be returned to the morgue.  In retrospect, I wish his ARRB questioner in 1996 (Jeremy Gunn) had pursued this with him; but so many other aspects of what Robinson witnessed seemed more important at the time, that Gunn did not pursue this avenue of questioning.  Jeremy Gunn (who refused to tape record the Robinson interview) told me at the time that if what he provided was significant, he could be re-interviewed, or even deposed, later.  What Robinson told us was very significant; Jeremy and I knew this; and he was never re-interviewed.  You'll have to ask Jeremy Gunn why.  I believe he should have been deposed.

 

Gordon, I guess you and I disagree about the degree to which the S.S. was "dirty."  The S.S. was involved in security stripping of the motorcade (reducing the number of motorcycle outriders for the limousine from 8 to 4, and demanding they stay behind the rear tires), and also removed the planned photography flatbed truck from directly in front of the limousine (in fact, cancelled it altogether).  The S.S. driver stopped the limousine during the shooting (if you believe the 50 plus witnesses who said so, and if you believe rich Della Rosa and Greg Burnham); and there was no need to brandish weapons at Parkland Hospital, or to threaten to run over the local coroner with the casket, unless their mission was simply to prevent any Texas autopsy from taking place.  I believe William Manchester's take on the whole Earl Rose event at Parkland was bizarre---Manchester blamed Rose for being out of control and making ridiculous demands, and insisted the S.S. was operating out of loyalty and letting their emotions guide them in hijacking the body.  Joe McBride, author of Into the Nightmare, also thinks Manchester's take on all this in Death of a President is 100% wrong.  When it comes to the performance of the Secret Service in Dallas, on AF1, in the Situation Room at the White House, and at Bethesda and the White House Garage, it seems inescapable to me that many key agents (Jerry Behn, Emory Roberts, Roy Kellerman, Bill Greer, Floyd Boring, and Winston Lawson) were "dirty," i.e., carrying out actions which aided and abetted the assassination, or its immediate coverup. I would rather face evil and call it what is is, than---to use a pithy metaphor---try to convince myself that my teenage daughter is only "a little bit pregnant."  You cannot be just "a little bit pregnant."  And you cannot have had a bloody coup in this country in 1963 without the involvement of key agents in the Whtie House Detail of the USSS.  Their behavior gives away their involvement; actions speak louder than words.  I have always interpreted Kellerman's statements during his testimony before Arlen Specter as "cover," as CYA actions by a guy who was in it up to his nostrils from the very beginning.


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#6 Gordon Gray

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 12:57 PM

Doug, I concur that certain SS agents were complicit, most likely Boring and Roberts. But I have a hard time believing the most of the detail had direct knowledge of a plot and were willingly complicit. Operations like this are too compartmentalized. At the time of the confrontation with Rose the LN cover story was not in operation. The whole after math of the assassination, including the body switch, coffin roulette, and pre autopsy surgery seems to me to have been hastily improvised rather than carefully planned. As to Kellerman's WC testimony it seems to me much easier for him to go along with the party line than to go against it if he is covering his ass. I can see Boring getting a call from some one in the Whitehouse who could speak for the President, expressing that it was the President's wish to appear open and accessible to Dallas for political reasons, and there fore the changes in the protection should be implemented. Boring would only need Roberts' compliance to  make that so. The rest of the detail may have felt something was fishy but chose not to ask questions and followed orders. What I wonder is all this improvising needed some one to orchestrate it. I wonder who that would have been. As to putting the body back into the bronze a casket and returning it to the ambulance, it still would have required at least 4 people to do this, probably more. Who was available at 7:30 to do this? IIRC there were ,more than just Humes, Boswell and some SS agents, present at that time. Why did no one mention seeing this, or participating in it, other than the ambiguous remarks of Robinson.



#7 Hans Trayne

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 09:14 PM

Some of the recent discussion I have read elsewhere about the C-130 pilots & load crew that flew JFK's parade car from Love Field to Andrews AFB seemed to have fallen through the cracks: the media did not film or interview them and thus far one researcher (Vince Palamera) managed to locate one of the crew in the late '90's who refused to talk to him. The entire crew is important for a multitude of reasons: they presumably heard some or all of the AF-1 radio transmissions that Bill Kelly & Ed Primeau discovered were censored, they know if JFK's parade car had a bullet hole in the windshield or not (and may have personal photos of it onboard the C-130) and it's possible their aircraft played a role in transporting JFK's body to Andrews. Some have speculated the crew had time to oversee a parade car windshield replacement from a Dallas Lincoln dealership (had flying with the damaged windshield presented a safety concern to the C-130 pilots & crew) & also participate in the luggage transfer from AF-2 to AF-1. We don't have full info on all aircraft that landed at Love Field & their departure times 22 Nov 1963, any one could have been used to transport JFK's body  out of Love Field ahead of AF-1's departure. Military aircraft can be ordered to fly to and land at any runway at any time of day or night. What was received by air traffic control at Love Field & those involved with AF-1, AF-2 & the C-130 'death car' transport plane may not have turned everything they had over to the ARRB.

If the concern at Love Field was that Texas authorities would storm AF-1, make arrests & re-claim JFK's body any scenario is possible to prevent that from occurring & justifiable to the actors involved. The C-130 flight manifest should list all crew & passengers that flew out of Dallas plus list specific waivers or instructions granted if the damaged windshield was a flying safety concern. If Vince Palamera has located that manifest he is urged to share the names of the people listed on it so a broad effort to locate the crew, their commanders, relatives & friends who may have some knowledge of the crew's experiences at Love Field. From what I read online the C-130 is supposed to have originated from an Air Force Base in South Carolina (most likely Charleston AFB or a National Guard unit within that state). Special missions would normally require one or more debriefings by the crew's commanders & gag orders may have been placed on them. Such orders normally would have automatically rescinded upon the military separation of each crew member involved. I've read it's not unusual for pilots to refuse to fly with damaged cargo & often waivers or orders from higher headquarters are issued to get the flight airborne. That could have happened here & may be some of what has been edited out of the AF-1 audio tapes. We just don't know enough without hearing from the crew; they know their story, we don't.

 

As you try to figure this all out with limited info available, keep in mind your skeptics are going to ask wouldn't it have been easier to just give the normal autopsy bullets to the FBI & let Hoover decide what to toss out & replace with Oswald ammo, military brass order the autopsy report to be written in harmony with Hoover's LN scenario & avoid the 'shell game'?



#8 Stan Wilbourne

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 09:22 PM

Hello Hans,

 

Did you see Doug Horne's response to this topic in his article on the main site:

 

Doug Horne - What Really Happened - Doug's comments are at the bottom of the page, in "Comments."



#9 Hans Trayne

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:03 AM

Stan, I looked at Mr. Horne's response to those commenting where your link sent me. My response to his comments are the crew of the C-130 holds the definitive answers to what transpired on their aircraft, when they departed Love Field & landed at Andrews, what radio traffic they heard that is not on the AF-1 tapes & the exact condition of JFK's parade car. An effort for the MSM & private researchers to locate that crew, their commanders, family & friends should not be underplayed IMO. What they have to say will either bolster Mr. Horne's thesis or clarify where it is wrong. The public desires factual information over a thesis fiercely guarded like a lion protecting its lioness IMO. A factual accounting of all aircraft that landed and departed Love Field 22 Nov 1963 is not known as of this date. This is an arrow for investigation into areas previously unexplored, something Mr. Horne should welcome as his thesis is exactly that. One can't insinuate SS agents were involved in removing JFK's body from his casket at Love Field & transporting his corpse to Bethesda early in one breath and then rely on SS agents written reports to be truthful if such a sordid event truly took place.



#10 Gordon Gray

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 01:09 PM

FWIW Pamela Brown in her work on the Limo says the C130 was still on the ground at Love field at 3:30 PM CST and the Limo was offloaded at Andrews at around 8:30 PM. Don't know what her sources are but this would preclude the presidents body being on the C120, IMO.



#11 Guest_James Norwood_*

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 12:45 PM

One documented source for both the take-off and landing times of the C-130 transport plane is Secret Service Agent Samuel A. Kinney, who provided a signed affidavit on November 30, 1963, citing precise times, as follows:

“The cars were loaded and the plane secured, awaiting our orders to depart Love Field enroute to Andrews Air Force Base, Maryland. The plane departed Love Field at 3:35 pm. We arrived AAFB, Md at 8:05 pm.”

The document may be accessed at this site: 
http://jfkassassinat...ss/sa-kinne.htm
 

It is amazing that when the Secret Service is really doing its job, we have detailed and helpful records.

It is equally remarkable that when we do not have professional record-keeping, there is ample room for suspicion, as in the case of SS Agent Roy Kellerman.

When asked by the Warren Commission about the time the casket eventually left Bethesda after the autopsy, Roy Kellerman, the Secret Service agent with the greatest responsibility for maintaining the chain of custody of the casket, replied confidently, “We left the hospital for the White House at 3:56 in the morning.”  But when asked about the arrival time of the casket, Kellerman answered, “I don’t have a recollection.”  (Warren Report, Volume II, 100).

In other words, Kellerman was unable or unwilling even to speculate on when the body of JFK was delivered to the Bethesda Hospital.  It took decades to sort out the complexities of the arrival of the casket, and we owe a great debt to Douglas Horne for unraveling the chain of custody.

 



#12 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 01:11 AM

8:05, is that 18:05 local time (the european and military way)?

#13 Ray Mitcham

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:35 PM

Interesting article by A.J. MacDonald Jnr. who said said that as a child, he was at Bethesda when the helicopter arrived with JFK's body.

 

see 

 
 
Interesting in view of the Air Force One tapes.
 

 



#14 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:32 AM

I think its strange that we have become so used to the facts concerning this case that we often never see the forrest for the trees. LBJ swearing the Presidential oath on AF1 is perhaps one of these. When you look at the photos from this event its on the border of insane: Why would the alreaddy Commander in Chief have to be sworn in that soon? Why not wait a week or two - its not as if someone would come and take the job as president from Johnson. And why would he feel the need to take over AF1 - the exact same plane as AF2 (which were call signs, so AF2 would automatically have become AF1 with the CiC on board). The first order LBJ gave when he entered AF1 was to lower all blinds in the windows. WHY? Then all his bagage from AF2 were to be transfered over to AF1. WHY - they were going to the same destination 2 hours away?

It looks like a small conspiracy within the bigger conspiracy - to make sure no one in the plane could see what was going on outside the plane and to move the body among the arriving luggage from AF2, to be put in a frontal compartment. During the oath this is when the body most likely was moved IMO. I dont think they used the opportunity to take it out via the cellar at Parkland, as Calder and I think DellaRosa believed. The question is: How did John Ligget get into all this, if at all?



#15 Greg Burnham

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:47 AM

I think your scenario has merit, Staffan.


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#16 Hans Trayne

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 05:32 PM

There is not enough info available to the public on air traffic in & out of Love Field plus surrounding smaller airfields 22 Nov 1963 to get an idea of what was happening during the time period when JFK was murdered & his body allegedly left Parkland for Love Field & the alleged shenanigans aboard AF-1. The public knows that media coverage of JFK ends with the white ambulance leaving Parkland & does not continue when the ambulance arrives at Love Field. There's no media coverage of that arrival & no spectator interviews at Love Field. The public does know that reporters were flocking to Dallas via aircraft flights. There is no media coverage of that event. Texas is a big state, surrounding Dallas were other military installations, some being Reserve units. The public has no information on dispatches to & from Dallas in regards to removing JFK's body. It's possible information turned over to the ARRB hasn't been declassified just as it's possible the ARRB never received all the information it should have (by law). The more attention that is given to all activity that happened 22 Nov 1963 in regards to military response & assets usage just may blow the lid off the entire case. Military people involved were assets too. As it stands now, there were two opportunities to move JFK's body from Dallas; at Parkland & at Love Field. I, for one, have never been completely satisfied that JFK was inside  the casket that left Parkland for Love Field, although there is supposedly rock solid evidence he was. I am not disagreeing with Mr. Horne's theory but I keep an open mind on other possibilities on how JFK's body left Dallas & encourage others following the still developing story to do the same. In death, as in life, JFK was surrounded by military & other Government assets. Lots of people that can quickly & secretly pull lots of strings; anyone who has served in either capacity knows all too well that nothing is released to the media until it has been reviewed & approved first.



#17 Hans Trayne

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 10:21 PM

There are many aspects of the assassination of JFK that are still unknown that could be known if persons having knowledge take advantage of the open door Greg Burnham & his staff have made available for persons to contact him with what they know. For example:

 

The public knows from the KLRD TV footage broadcast of JFK & entourage's arrival at Love Field that there were aircraft parked around the terminal that either just arrived or were waiting to take-off. People were working in the air traffic control tower, people were working in aircraft ground support. They knew what landed & what departed. Any and all of those persons that were never interviewed or offered statements can contact Greg Burnham & share their story with him. Family & friends that have 2nd hand info can do the same. I've yet to see a logbook that recorded all flights into & out of Love Field 22 Nov 1963, have you? I've yet to see any interviews or documentation that Air Traffic Controllers heard any of the messages sent & received by AF-1, AF-2  & the phantom C-130 or possibly recorded them either.

 

No one has come forward from any of the military installations in close proximity to Love Field (Carswell Air Force Base being probably the closest) with any information of persons from their base assisting in the after actions of the murder of JFK & the removal of his body from Dallas.

 

From personal experience I know sometimes just an 'ordinary Joe or Jane'  may possess extraordinary information & not realize it. This was demonstrated to me a few months after the Challenger explosion when one of my neighbors (a Naval reservist) mentioned to me one day that he had participated in the Challenger recovery operation & that the crew did not all perish in the explosion; some oxygen tanks had been activated as the doomed cabin fell from the sky towards the ocean. he and his fellow recovery companions learned this once the cabin was located. At the time, TV news had consistently reported the entire crew perished when the fuel tank exploded. It wasn't until the mid 2000's that I saw this same info in a brief televised update story on the Challenger disaster.

 

I believe there are persons alive now that have important information about the JFK assassination that can help answer the question posed in this topic about JFK's documented early arrival at Bethesda ahead of the motorcade containing Jackie Kennedy & the bronze casket. If just one person would contact Greg Burnham or his staff with what info they have the global public will gain from it.

 

Greg Burnham repeatedly demonstrates to me in his work published on the website that he is completely deserving of the public's trust in sharing information on JFK's murder. I can only hope someone does while time is available to do so.



#18 Larry Trotter

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 06:56 PM

8:05, is that 18:05 local time (the european and military way)?

I apologize if this question has been answered and I missed that post, but 08:05pm is, I believe, 20:05.


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#19 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 12:45 PM

Larry, of course. As you know in the "Germanic part" of Europe (Scandinavia, Germany, Holland etc) we use "military time" and not AM/PM. I just wanted to know it was actually 20.05 and not 18.05. Thanks!



#20 Jim Hackett II

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 04:15 AM

"...And you cannot have had a bloody coup in this country in 1963 without the involvement of key agents in the Whtie House Detail of the USSS.  Their behavior gives away their involvement; actions speak louder than words.  I have always interpreted Kellerman's statements during his testimony before Arlen Specter as "cover," as CYA actions by a guy who was in it up to his nostrils from the very beginning."

 

Doug Horne

right to the heart of the issues!

 

And I do agree re:Kellerman's line of crap spread to Specter and thence to us.

Give an assist to Manchester.

Shame on that gyrene friend of the Brothers.






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