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#41 Jim Hackett II

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 03:10 AM

With some heated exchanges that are still productive, I value the passion for what we CAN know from all the posting members.

 

Thanks Phil,

The above is revealing. My first reaction was in the line of OMG!

 

Butch and Sundance: These guys are good indeed.

 

But then again so are the gathered people here.

 

Bruno advance jerk has kept me thinking about what we might have known IF...

and as for his dog Toto.........more of the same, IF.

 

Euchre is a card game.

The midwesterners had to teach other Gyrenes the game but then it beat the hell out of poker for the poor.

 

Things cast doubt on the person named Uecker's word and veracity.

 

Dotterman to Uecker to Cesar..... beats the tar out of "Tinkers to Evers to Chance".

 

I liked the Stooges thing Mr. Drago.

Sometimes I need the humor in the crap swamp of these cases.

Jim



#42 Charles Drago

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 06:09 AM

Thanks, Jim.  Well put.


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#43 Michael Calder

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 12:17 PM

Boris and Natasha,

Dotterman gives himself away with what he didn't do next. He didn't accompany RFK backstage or walk with him through the double doors that lead to the pantry. He wasn't standing next to the senator waiting to bring him to his next venue, the Colonial Room. And for good reason. If he had accompanied RFK he would have been a witness to the shooting and subject to intense scrutiny by the LAPD. Instead Gary Dotterman, the "advance man" went over to the podium and picked up a few objects. A minute later he went over to the far right side of the stage, upstage left if you are on the stage. He turns toward the anteroom to the right of the stage which leads directly to the double doors of the pantry. He seems to be listening or waiting for something to happen. Two real advance men did what advance men do. Jack Gallivan and another advance man were told during the speech that a change has been made and RFK would now go directly to the Colonial Room after speaking. Both advance men then walked off the route through the Colonial Room out the door crossing the lobby and into the Colonial Room. After briefly looking around they returned to the Embassy Room retracing their steeps. When the shots where fired, Gallivan and his associate were 20 feet in front of Kennedy. Gallivan had kept turning back and pausing as Kennedy stopped to shake hands with the kitchen help. He was facing the exit door when he heard the shots and raced back to help subdue Sirhan. There is photograph of Sirhan thrown on the metal serving table with just his arm seen and Gallivan is holding onto Sirhan's gun hand. Charles, if you ever get a chance to play Sherlock Holmes or Dr.Watson in the next remake, choose Dr.Watson.

#44 Charles Drago

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 12:29 PM

Alimentary, my dear Watson.

 

Which is where we find most of Calder's stated-once-and-then-evaded-when-challenged conclusions. 

Attached Files


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#45 Greg Burnham

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 01:54 PM

Michael,

 

Although Charles' normal tone is somewhat unforgiving, his intent is pure. By the same token, over the years researchers have been met with disdain by authors who have become so married to their theories that they treat challenges to those theories as heresy rather than peer review. I suggest that engaging Charles may prove to be an invaluable resource despite his caustic approach. Your hypotheses will more than likely become stronger as a result of his criticism. It is better to meet these challenges and answer them in good faith while they are being pointed out by those of a like mind (conspiracy) before being faced with them by lone nut advocates. The value of Karl Popper's Falsifiability Principle comes to mind.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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#46 Phil Dragoo

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 03:10 AM

Jim, your doubts about Uecker occurred to me as well.

 

A diagram of the pantry shows a partition on the right as we enter the double doors in the candidate's footsteps.

 

Sirhan is ahead.

 

Uecker and Cesar are "guiding" the candidate.

 

We have several mentioned above who witnessed a second gun.

 

This second gun was in the hand of one in the shadow of this partition--perhaps the Sirhan lookalike who was circulating that night and at several campaign events in the days just prior.  Perhaps the member of the kitchen staff who was off-duty that night and in the pantry, another similar in appearance.

 

Charles, when you recalled the sleeve gun suggestion I thought of the Japanese garden with its sleeve fence.

 

An extension of the house excluding the unsightly so the homeowner may have a pleasing view.

 

Before he is killed.



#47 Charles Drago

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 08:10 AM

What is truly galling about Calder's posts here -- and God knows where else -- is that he often presents extremely valuable information on which he often builds ludicrous conclusions that have the effect of tainting the good stuff.

 

This has been my point all along. 


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#48 Greg Burnham

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 09:39 AM

Thanks for stating your point directly, Charles. I tend to agree with it in principle. Although I wouldn't personally consider his methodology galling, it does cause concern--not because he is suspect--but because it appears (at least to me) that the conclusions do not follow the evidence in that they are often overreaching in their scope. Having said that, I applaud the good work he has done to research this case and share what he knows with us.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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#49 Charles Drago

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 11:18 AM

Thanks for stating your point directly, Charles. I tend to agree with it in principle. Although I wouldn't personally consider his methodology galling, it does cause concern--not because he is suspect--but because it appears (at least to me) that the conclusions do not follow the evidence in that they are often overreaching in their scope. Having said that, I applaud the good work he has done to research this case and share what he knows with us.

 

Usually I'm loathe to interpret my preferred forms of commentary.  It is precisely because of the high value of Calder's good work that I did so here.

 

Four Sirhan look-a-likes squatting in a circle, rehearsing the upcoming assassination on-site ... 

 

How can one take seriously anything that the poser of such an hypothesis might proffer?

 

And yet there is so much of Calder that truly deserves serious consideration.

 

My bottom line: He's a liability.

 

One man's opinion.


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#50 Greg Burnham

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 12:48 PM

 

Four Sirhan look-a-likes squatting in a circle, rehearsing the upcoming assassination on-site ... 

 

 

Indeed, that is among the more seriously problematic assertions he has made. If not for the depth and breadth of his investigative skills, I would probably come to a similar conclusion regarding which side of the ledger sheet he should be placed. As it is, I may choose to reject his speculative conclusions while benefitting from the raw data he has accumulated. And for that, I thank him.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

Website:

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#51 Michael Calder

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 03:11 PM

Greg,

I already came to the same conclusion that Charles makes me stronger. And makes me laugh. For the record, those bus boys, etc, were bit players in the drama. Background actors in this play. At most they were the eyes and ears for the heavyweights waiting for RFK in the pantry. But if I gave you guys an eyewitness to the team waiting for Kennedy it wouldn't matter would it.



#52 Jim Hackett II

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 03:21 PM

Phil,

As most always, you provoke deep thoughts with only a few words.

 

Ah the Japanese Garden, stage dressing and setup before the gunplay.

 

Too many shots for LAPD fable, then destroying possibly exculpatory evidence and some of them (LAPD Officers) flat out LIED.

Mr. Scot Enyart being done like trash when he could have helped the investigation had there ever been a real one.

Ms. Seranno treated as conspirator by a real conspirator.

 

The why is clear.

A second killer had to be hidden.

Dick Helms was not to be disappointed, let alone exposed.

Speculative conclusion on my part?

Absolutely, but I think the idea is proper and supported by facts but not proven, hence speculation I suppose.

 

The Dallas aftermath proving the gullibility of WeThePeople, Memphis reinforced the ability to fool most of the people most the time.

The haters used in cover to kill the man John Judge called 'the king of hearts' in Memphis.

It must have seems easy to the Enemy to do it all again.

The fable was getting easier to create more effectively.

Hate was a motive for the patsy in the fables, but hate empowered the murderers in all the cases.

The Enemy holds hate as sacred I guess.

A cold bleak way to define life on this planet.

The way to death is hate.

 

WeThePeople are led into the sleeve fenced Japanese Garden of Peace and Harmony as our last sight before the door to the killing floor opens.

 

As was Robert Kennedy.

A quite appropriate image Phil.

 

PS. I do not think the "CIA" per se 'did it'.

The AGENCY acted to serve as agent of the Enemy.

Multitasking to both accomplish a desired goal in service to the nameless gentry,

AND to protect itself from any real investigation with RFK as POTUS.



#53 Greg Burnham

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 04:19 PM

Greg,

I already came to the same conclusion that Charles makes me stronger. And makes me laugh. For the record, those bus boys, etc, were bit players in the drama. Background actors in this play. At most they were the eyes and ears for the heavyweights waiting for RFK in the pantry. But if I gave you guys an eyewitness to the team waiting for Kennedy it wouldn't matter would it.

 

Try me...


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

Website:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Main Page

 

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#54 Charles Drago

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 04:47 PM

 But if I gave you guys an eyewitness to the team waiting for Kennedy it wouldn't matter would it.

 

Since you would be doing the giving, you're probably right.


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#55 Greg Burnham

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 10:07 AM

Serrano1.jpg

 

Serrano2.jpg

 

Serrano3.jpg

 

Serrano4.jpg

 

Serrano5.jpg

 

Serrano6.jpg


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Greg Burnham
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

Website:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Main Page

 

Forum:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Research Forum

 
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#56 Phil Dragoo

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 03:01 AM

Thank you for that report, Greg.

 

Sandra Serrano saw the polka-dot dress woman with the funny nose come up the stairs with Sirhan and cardigan latino.

 

Pop pop et cetera, and polka-dot dress woman with the funny nose comes running down shouting, "We shot him!  We shot him!"

 

With cardigan latino. 

 

Other witnesses saw this polka-dot dress funny nose woman, some saw her with Sirhan.

 

Sandy Serrano became LAPD/AID/CIA polygrapher cum gestapo bad asterisk's favorite punching bag.

 

He made her cry--you listen to the tapes and he is a [please insert the appropriate epithet] to the point it dawns on one--

 

--he has an agenda, and it isn't the truth.  In fact, it is the other side of the universe.

 

A new epiphany is that Sandy tried another exit but could not get past the cop--so she found an exit she could use--

 

--and so did polkadot dress girl with the funny nose and her cardigan latino.

 

(And, please, por favor, could not this latino be the kind of latino Sirhan is/was?)

 

So we have Sirhan getting in and staying in the pantry because Cesar made sure he did and could.

 

And Sirhan's very important companion could escape--through a door not guarded.

 

Why was it so important for Hank Hernandez to bully the young woman, make her cry--to the point she will not cooperate on a proposed new book.

 

Witness intimidation. 

 

And we note in the final paragraph the LAPD officer is deleted as well as the Secret Service officer--but the Secret Service did not protect the candidate.

 

How then did Secret Service come to be at the Ambassador.

 

How is it the two key LAPD detectives were part of the AID program--and it is common knowledge AID is a glove worn by CIA in many countries.

 

A footnote on AID:

 

Ruth Paine's father had worked for the Agency for International Development, an organization with "extensive" ties to the CIA, according to researcher Philip Melanson. [1.1] Michael Paine's brother also worked for AID. George DeMohrenschildt, alleged to have been Oswald's intelligence "handler," also once worked for AID. [1.2]

 

From Pictures of the Paines http://spot.acorn.ne...e/painepix.html



#57 Greg Burnham

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 09:16 AM

You're welcome, Phil.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

Website:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Main Page

 

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#58 Jim Hackett II

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 09:20 AM

Its the Docs. The documents.!!!!

 

Now I got em.. or will.

 

Its the juxtaposition.

 

Its the long view.

 

I thank Phil and Greg in particular but all inclusive too.

 

I like hearing others work the info because I usually learn something or gain a perspective I hadn't thought about.



#59 Michael Calder

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 02:09 PM

Jim Hackett II and Phil,

 

I 'm going to use the PS of Jim's to use at parties as an escape maneuver and to go fetch another drink. I've wanted something succinct yet covers the basics. LAPD wanted to know why a Secret Service agent was registered at the hotel at the time of the murder so they contacted the Secret Service. LAPD was told the agent in question was not at the hotel  that day or night but didn't say where he was. Also, the agent was in LA for Jacqueline Kennedy. Against this explanation is the agent had been at the hotel for a number of days and the hotel room was paid for by the RFK campaign. Jackie had no plans i'm aware of to come to California and campaign for Bobby. I'm wondering if this agent was at the hotel that night in some capacity for Bobby and saw something.  



#60 Greg Burnham

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 02:59 PM

ADMIN NOTE:

 

I have added a new category to this RFK Forum for archiving and discussing the Official Documents connected to the RFK assassination investigation. The first installment consists of the statement made by Pete Hamill located here:

 

The Statement of Bill Hamill

 

I will add more as time permits.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

Website:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Main Page

 

Forum:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Research Forum

 
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