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#21 Charles Drago

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 11:50 AM

No rush to judgement from these quarters, Greg.  As far as the work of Ramon and the Truth Seekers is concerned, I sincerely hope for the best.

 

Back goes the dial.  

 

But I reserve the rights to keep a very close watch on Herrrara via his JFK forum postings and to report and opine on any that add to his record of absurd and demeaning characterizations of the best of our community.


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#22 Phil Dragoo

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 12:18 PM

Larry, it's your thread topic: 

 

JFK: Inside the Target Car
(Discovery Channel):
Another Attempted Re-enactment
David W. Mantik, M.D., Ph.D.
16 November 2008

 

http://www.assassina.../v5n2mantik.pdf


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#23 Greg Burnham

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 02:17 PM

Onward and upward, tally ho!


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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#24 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 04:27 PM

I await Mr. Herrera's revelatory exposition.

 

The last time I was instructed in the scientific methodology the "checking" is done by peer-review and tested by repeatabilty of predicted results tested again by peers.

 

As opposed to any other means of evaluation.

 

I await Mr. Herrera's revelatory exposition to be posted here abouts.

 

Jim

 

Hi Jim:

 

In reference to science, all I am trying to do is to attract the interest of some qualified researchers toward this case, to pique their curiosity and THEN DISAPPEAR from the face of this earth (well, from JFK forums, anyway).

 

Fair enough?

 

The JFK researchers on both sides don't seem to be aware that the 21st. century has arrived.

 

I have identified 3 specific instances in which science and technology are sadly absent. This list is in order, from easiest to achieve to really hard, but still doable:

 

    Open Source 3D Model of Dealey Plaza

    https://goo.gl/jTy69B

 

    Isometric to 3D Projection

    https://goo.gl/cZ7Axr

 

    Numerical Analysis / Simulation

    https://goo.gl/da4mcQ

 

-Ramon



#25 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 04:36 PM

Let's not forget the most fundamental maxim, when a new initiative or project is proposed.

 

Respect to it, people have THREE (and only 3) legitimate choices:

 

 • Lead

 • Follow

 • Get the eff out of the way.



#26 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 04:47 PM

Jim:

 

You may want to take a look at these two threads. Please keep in mind the terms "Open Source" and "scientific collaboration":

 

    Only for Geeks and Frustrated Physicians

    http://educationforu...showtopic=22405

 

    If the Brazilians can do this, just imagine what we can achieve...

    http://educationforu...showtopic=22466

 

-Ramon



#27 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 05:17 PM

In reference to science, all I am trying to do is to attract the interest of some qualified researchers toward this case, to pique their curiosity and THEN DISAPPEAR from the face of this earth (well, from JFK forums, anyway).

 

Furthermore, we can push forward my disappearance! Use the fast track!! This very coming week I am gone!

 

    [Public Clamoring:]

   "How can we make you vanish, to get out of our hair (and screens), Ramon?"

 

Easy: Finding a replacement for any of the 3 projects above mentioned. I thought Mark Messer would take over completely the 3D Dealey Plaza Model. Upon realizing his extraordinary set of skills (technical AND artistic, not an easy mix) plus unequaled commitment, I told him:

 

 "Mark, as far as I am concerned you are the boss. You are running this show."

 

But, alas, it turns out that he has a family, a real job and spends countless hours drawing. Therefore, I have to locate and interview potential assistants, find top of the line (and CHEAP) animators, write letters to the Dallas County and to PBS/NOVA, etc. Thus, I can't leave.  :-(

 

    "Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in." (*)

 

I spent part of the day corresponding with Dr. John Costella. He was most kind, sympathetic, etc. but not interested in any of the 3 projects. He did not see any value in any of them. His preoccupation/interest seems to be awaiting to see whether our beloved and trusted government ever releases the real photographic evidence. I write this with the utmost respect for his past work and freedom of choice.

 

-Ramon

 

(*) Michael Corleone



#28 Charles Drago

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 05:45 PM

The JFK researchers on both sides don't seem to be aware that the 21st. century has arrived.

 

This guy just won't stop.

 

His sarcastic, passive-aggressive, ultimately cowardly dismissal of John Costella tells us all we need to know about Ramon and the Truth Seekers:

 

"I spent part of the day corresponding with Dr. John Costella. He was most kind, sympathetic, etc. but not interested in any of the 3 projects. He did not see any value in any of them. His preoccupation/interest seems to be awaiting to see whether our beloved and trusted government ever releases the real photographic evidence. I write this with the utmost respect for his past work and freedom of choice."

 

Herrera could have come out of the box sober and focused on his work.  Instead, he struts and preens like God's gift to JFK research -- a claim he seeks to reinforce by demeaning the work and the minds of the best of our community's scientists.

 

Why?  How does such nonsense enhance his work?  

 

This all goes to motive/agenda.


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"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#29 Jim Hackett II

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 03:52 AM

I commend Phil's effort to turn the thread away from mickey mouse droppings.

 

I detest the continued Bullshit of one that "just won't stop".

 

Dismissal of Dr. Costella?? And By impication Dr. Mantik to be thrown out with the dirty bath water.

 

It most certainly does speak to agenda and motive.

 

Anyone notice that when one of these POSE-ner wanna be cry babies is confronted,

 

then the site is bombarded with fake members playing cry baby sand box kindergarten games?

 

What could ever be next? A referral to Luis Alvarez' nobel prize lariet snare of "jet effect" bullshit?

 

Or attempted provocation? No good wonder boy, the shot rims out at the buzzer for losers like yourself on this court.

 

No Reggie Miller there! Boom Baby!

 

But ..... at the other end of the hardwood hoop arena dear to all Hoosiers.

 

Charles called this one right!

 

sarcastic, passive-aggressive, ultimately cowardly dismissal of John Costella tells us all we need to know about Ramon and the Truth Seekers.

 

Mack would have loved this BULLSHIT.

 
I for one have had enough and given enough time to an ass. Wouldn't wanna be ya nor whoever sent ya.
 
Phil's link is quite relevant and to the original point of this thread before it was hijacked by the wasted effort of a chump.
 
Jim


#30 Greg Burnham

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 01:20 PM

I spent part of the day corresponding with Dr. John Costella. He was most kind, sympathetic, etc. but not interested in any of the 3 projects. He did not see any value in any of them. 

 

 

Ramon,

 

Why do you see value in them? Assuming you made 100% perfect (which is impossible) 3D models of Dealey Plaza, then what do you hope to learn that you can't learn by visiting the real thing? Did you reveal these specific reasons to John and why did he reject them as having no value to aid you in your pursuit?

 

The reason I ask is simple: If you told him what you were hoping to accomplish in terms of its probative value, and he gave you a reason(s) that your goal would not be reached using this method, perhaps you should take that under advisement before disappointing yourself.


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Greg Burnham
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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#31 Greg Burnham

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 01:22 PM

Admin note to the saintly, Larry Trotter:

 

Larry, thank you for your patience as your thread topic was derailed. I apologize for not moderating it better to separate the topics. Mea culpa...


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Greg Burnham
Admin

 

 

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

Website:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Main Page

 

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AssassinationOfJFK.net Research Forum

 
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#32 Larry Trotter

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 07:50 PM

Actually, all of the comments seem to relate to the subject of re-enactment, and are much appreciated. The program contained many falsehoods, but the headlock position bothered me the most. And, I do hope that any project is based on actual facts and not following an incorrect re-creation. Thankfully, the issue has been addressed previously. Unfortunately, it continues to be broadcast on National TV.


Larry

Student of Assassination Research


#33 Charles Drago

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 07:14 AM

Ramon,

 

Why do you see value in them? Assuming you made 100% perfect (which is impossible) 3D models of Dealey Plaza, then what do you hope to learn that you can't learn by visiting the real thing? Did you reveal these specific reasons to John and why did he reject them as having no value to aid you in your pursuit?

 

The reason I ask is simple: If you told him what you were hoping to accomplish in terms of its probative value, and he gave you a reason(s) that your goal would not be reached using this method, perhaps you should take that under advisement before disappointing yourself.

 

Careful, Greg.  You're coming dangerously close to revealing yourself to be yet another stuck-in-the-twentieth-century researcher uninterested in the truth.


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#34 Jim Hackett II

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 09:32 AM

After all the bluff, bluster and like junk I waited for the data to review it.

 

It would seem DISTRACTION from Mr. Trotters' thread opening post was the real objective.

 

ITTC and all the rest of the junk from 2013 TV networks plying the same old line of **** were already dismissed as exactly that by those that bother to care/research.

 

Like an unoffiicial WCR/HSCA tripe version 3. infinite by Discovery/Disney Psyops Division in my view.

 

It must be expected by past performance that the old docu-dramas of junk will be repeated every November.

 

Wonder who the new talking head will be now?

 

I do not care as I'll dismiss any work of cowards afraid of the truth and WeThePeople.

 

After all, one must "stand right up for somethin', or you'll fall for anything"!

 

Jim

 

PS. As a sidebar I too am interested in the question of will the US Goverment/Secret Service ever release the real film used to create the Z-toon.

The extant Z-toon is demonstrably phony baloney. IMO - FWIW.



#35 Phil Dragoo

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 01:35 PM

Larry, there are reviews of the Dunkel-Riefenstahl Disinformazione Productions hoax by David Mantik, Pamela Brown, Jim DiEugenio.

 

The latter's paragraph effectively exposes the propagandist's agenda.  Pay careful attention--the reveal applies equally to Spectre, Inc.:

 

In fact in the aforementioned online discussion, Gary Mack admitted that he, and the show, were wrong about this. He then added this: "We didn't catch it at the time." But yet, according to Robert Groden, this is a lie. He was in Dealey Plaza at the time the show was filming the limousine simulations with models in it. He said that he pointed out to the show's director and Gary Mack that the "positions and locations of both the actors portraying President and Jackie Kennedy were completely wrong." Then Groden added something that is really important in understanding the program's genesis and ultimate purpose. In that regard, it actually sounds like something J. Lee Rankin would write to his assistant counsel about the true position of the bullet that entered into Kennedy's back. Groden posted that both Mack and the director replied that "the positions and locations were not important to the points they were trying to show." But if this were so then why did Mack misrepresent that specific point to the public on the air! He actually said that the shot would have hit Jackie. I have an idea as to why. Because that was an easy visual way to discredit a shot from that angle. Almost like the show did focus groups, they understood this would easily register with the public. I know this because a colleague from work said this to me the day after the show aired. Knowing my interest in the JFK case, he came up to me at lunch and said, "Jim, the shot couldn't have come from the front. It would have hit Jackie." And we all know it did not. So the evidence Groden produces from behind the scenes, says that the producers knew they were wrong and went ahead anyway for propaganda purposes. And Mack then tried to conceal this when he said they didn't catch it in time. Further, the quote by Groden that I am using was posted on February 5, 2009. Way after the show's initial broadcast. He said he was reposting it at this time. Why? Because his initial post of the information had been removed!

 

Do we see Dunkel doing the Gruber in re the stupidity of Americans"

 

Slow the film down and focus on this sentence:

 

Groden posted that both Mack and the director replied that "the positions and locations were not important to the points they were trying to show."

 

It's hard to see the stitches on Dunkel's fast ball so we will zoom in on the core phrase:

 

"the positions and locations were not important to the points they were trying to show."

 

Okay, the heckler of Marrs, the little Dunkel who thought he was an historian, the pompous Poppin' Fresh of the Sixth Floor Confusatory:

 

positions and locations were not important

 

We see that Dunkel has invoked "ends justifies means"

 

that "the points they were trying to show"

 

were the same old Lone Gunman/Magic Bullet dogma of the killer cabal which reigns to this day.

 

The "curator" was willing to advance his masters' agenda, plausible denial to perpetuate the P.T. Barnum Theory of History.

 

Your instinct was correct:  you knew to believe "your lying eyes", not the a priori Orwellian boot in your face.


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#36 Charles Drago

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 02:19 PM

Also, Phil, let us not forget the pleas for "respect" in the wake of Dunkel's descent.

 

They originated, of course, from the cognitively impaired and/or accessories to JFK's murder.


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#37 Phil Dragoo

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 05:03 PM

Yes, indeed, Charles.  Shrieking fairies and carping harpies beating their breasts,

 

rending their garments, outdoing each other with Hitchens' "saccharine and glutinous" praise.

 

In life the person was a willing handmaiden to the killers who still play Game of Thrones with our lives.

 

His apologists, too, hand out rocks wrapped in paper, towels, and admonitions to retain one's clothes ticket.

 

Before the thirty pieces of silver transformation into "I used to be a child" he marked a key feature of the initial "investigation"--

 

--and it persists as Lady Macbeth's bloodstained hands.

 

2qxosrb.jpg

 

In later life and now drawing the ship of the sun, he serves to ignore or deem mistaken or misinterpreted

 

"[o]ther evidence that pointed to perhaps other people or other location of shooters".

 

His billet in latter life was the Potemkin Sniper's Lair, which housed no Oswald,

 

the man who fired no rifle, who could not and did not (and would not) inflict the fatal frontal shot from behind.

 

Please Don't Be Beastly to the Germans.

 

He commented I certainly liked Goebbels--oh no, not I--Allen Dulles.

 

But the Big Lie came from the project of Montagu Norman, Hjalmar Schacht, the captains of industry and finance of Allen Dulles' Rolodex.

 

Was he lying then, are they lying now, or are they not chronic and habitual liars!

 

feqark.jpg



#38 Larry Trotter

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 09:26 PM

" I tend to believe that any re-enactment of the murder of JFK, whether staged with actors and props, or done with animation, correctness is absolutely essential. "

 

As stated, the ITTC re-enactment staged with actors and props appears to have multiple "errors" that if used for an animation assassination re-creation, the project would be worse than "useless" for researchers and students of the event, as it would "create" and spread incorrect information for years to come among the younger generation(s). Most "assassination truth seekers" understand, and those that do not, should. As Phil Dragoo posted, the program broadcast on National TV has been reviewed and commented on by some real JFK Assassination research experts long before this discussion, and their work can be seen on this topic. Very well worth reading.


Larry

Student of Assassination Research


#39 Phil Dragoo

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 02:41 PM

Yes, Larry, we have been reacting and researching for fifty-two years  Shall we then have a Cortland Cunningham or a Hani Farid or an Arlen Specter produce a deus ex Pixar to sell us the Sham Wow line of products?

 

Again, the production you found suspect has been examined and critiqued in a series of reviews beginning with this article section:

 

JFK: Inside the Target Car, Part One
Or, How to Rig an Experiment

http://www.ctka.net/2009/target_car_jd.html

By James DiEugenio

    See Additional Reviews of Inside the Target Car

 

    By Dr. David W. Mantik http://www.ctka.net/2009/jfk_limo.html
    By Pamela McElwain-Brown  http://www.ctka.net/...et_car_pmb.html
    Part Two of James DiEugenio  http://www.ctka.net/...et_car_jd2.html
    Part Three of James DiEugenio http://www.ctka.net/...et_car_jd3.html

 

 

Whenever I hear of a new scientific approach to the John F. Kennedy case, my first reaction is to shudder and then run for cover. I don't think it is hard to understand why I feel that way. Actually, it's quite simple. Its because whenever someone says they are going to treat this case with scientific rigor, sooner or later, the rigor dissipates and the so-called natural laws of the universe somehow fail. So suddenly, as with President Kennedy's violent rearward reaction, Newton's laws of motion don't apply anymore. Or as with the trajectory of the Single Bullet Theory through Kennedy's body, gun shot projectiles don't move through soft tissue in straight lines anymore.

 

Further, alleged "authorities" suddenly get thoroughly confused and confounded by the evidence. As Pat Speer has shown, Dr. Michael Baden didn't even know how to orient one of the most important autopsy photos. NASA scientist Tom Canning moved Kennedy's back wound up to make the Single Bullet Theory (SBT) work, and then shrunk Kennedy's head to make the head wound trajectory work. Dr. Vincent Guinn "proved" the SBT theory with his Bullet Lead analysis—which we now know, through the work of Pat Grant and Rick Randich, is nothing but "junk science". Its so junky that the FBI will not use it in court anymore.

 

At other times, we even get the spectacle of people who should not be approaching the case at all acting as if they were qualified in a certain field of scientific endeavor. Vincent Bugliosi used a chiropractor whose office offered massage therapy—Chad Zimmerman—as an authority in radiology. Robert Blakey hired statistician Larry Sturdivan to show films of goats being shot to illustrate the so-called neuromuscular reaction. (And then they both failed to tell us that Kennedy's reaction does not match what happens in the goat films.) Urologist John Lattimer was the first "independent" doctor admitted to the National Archives to report on the extant autopsy materials there. He somehow missed the fact that the president's brain was missing. Lattimer then gave us the Great Thorburn Hoax, which was thoroughly exposed by Milicent Cranor. And, of course, who can forget Dale Myers' computer 3D simulation, which turned the SBT from theory to "fact". A "fact" that was ripped to smithereens by Milicent Cranor, David Mantik, and Pat Speer.

 

The point of this partial list is simply to show that when the scientific method encounters the Kennedy case, it somehow loses all semblances to what most of us expect about that rubric. So for people like me who have become jaded by the above hijinks, I was not excited about another heralded and pretentiously headlined story. Especially after what ABC said in advance about the "indisputability" of the Myers debacle back in 2003. (See our critique of this fiasco.)

 

19s3b.jpg


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#40 Chuck Barlow

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 05:02 PM

When it comes to the JFK assassination, I've found that the U.S. Government always procures the best witnesses, testimony and evidence that money can buy.


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