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3D Animation of Dealey Plaza

Crime Scene Animation Virtual 3D vistaramic Dealey Plaza

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#1 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 11:46 AM

This is the best virtual visit, by far.

 

    http://www.vistarami...nnedy/ken1.html

 

Notice the icons/buttons.

 

-Ramon

 

Texas-School-Book-Depository-Building.jp



#2 Greg Burnham

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 01:51 PM

Very impressive work. Is it yours?

 

However, I object to the first "camera" icon which states that "This is the location from which Lee Harvey Oswald fired shots at President Kennedy" [paraphrased]. The word "allegedly" was left out. As a matter of law, Lee Harvey Oswald is still presumed innocent since he was never convicted of the crime. Not only did he not live to stand trial, but he never confessed to the crime nor was he ever seen in the window with a gun by anyone at anytime.

 

Also, the location of the "X" on Elm Street has been shown to be an incorrect location for the head shot. It was originally placed at its present position by Robert Groden, erroneously. The actual location appears to be farther west on Elm by approximately 30 feet.

 

If this is your work, I hope you make the corrections. If it's not your work, but you intend to make something similar, I hope that you don't include the same mistakes as the original.

 

[BTW: I'm glad to see the image uploader function is working properly for you now.]


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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#3 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 02:28 PM

Very impressive work. Is it yours?

 

Nope. I have been researching images and bumped into it. That's all. That company (Vistaramic) specializes in that sort of animation.

 

I have been tempted to commission an accurate 3D model (from an independent artist) that would allow us, for example, to see the limo as it passes,  from the southwest window, etc. In short, it would be the real scene that Dale Myers faked. Every file would be placed on the Internet for the world to see that our only interest is The Truth.

 

However, I would need somebody else to work with, a team of at least two people.

 

See a couple examples:

 

    https://www.youtube....h?v=4oE88aqPWAU

    https://www.youtube....h?v=OFBmg-N41gs

 

I don't do any of that grunt work (I wish I had the talent!). I just know where to find cheap hired guns. (*)

 

(*) Some happen to be highly talented. Their rates vary accordingly, of course. What we need to do is locate artists with plenty of motivation.



#4 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 02:50 PM

It would be something like this, but restricted to Dealey Plaza:

 

    http://www.3dcadbrow...x?3dmodel=20719

 

Believe or not, what you see below is a computer model:

 

Virtual-Model-City-of-Dallas.jpg



#5 Greg Burnham

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 06:01 PM

I don't do any of that grunt work (I wish I had the talent!). I just know where to find cheap hired guns.

 

You sound like one of the Facilitators!

 

Just kidding, of course.

 

I applaud your effort, Ramon. This would truly be a worthwhile endeavor, IMO. Keep up the good work.


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Greg Burnham
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

Website:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Main Page

 

Forum:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Research Forum

 
YouTube Channel:
 
GooglePlus:
 
Twitter:
 
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#6 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 09:59 AM

I applaud your effort, Ramon. This would truly be a worthwhile endeavor, IMO. Keep up the good work.

 

Greg:

 

What if a 3D interactive model were developed, supported by the community and the result hosted in your web site? Perhaps exclusively? At least initially?

 

I bet you would be on board ... Are you too busy for something like this?

 

-Ramon



#7 Greg Burnham

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 11:13 AM

Tally ho!

 

Yes, I would be on board and honored.


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Greg Burnham
Admin

 

 

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

Website:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Main Page

 

Forum:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Research Forum

 
YouTube Channel:
 
GooglePlus:
 
Twitter:
 
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#8 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 11:28 AM

Tally ho!

 

Yes, I would be on board and honored.

 

 

Step 1: We need to get in touch with one or more of these fellows:

 

     Lee Sanger Goldin

     http://jfk007.com/jfk3d/

     http://jfk007.com/why-agnostic/

 

     Jason Baird (lives in Dallas - I am already corresponding with Jason)

     https://www.kickstar...as-texas-in-3d/

 

     Stephen Goetsch (the director/producer of "A Coup In Camelot" - I have been corresponding with him as well)

     http://acoupincamelot.com/

 

     Art Van Kampen (writer/producer, "A Coup in Camelot")

     https://goo.gl/m951Bh



#9 Larry Trotter

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 03:51 PM

Very impressive work. Is it yours?

 

However, I object to the first "camera" icon which states that "This is the location from which Lee Harvey Oswald fired shots at President Kennedy" [paraphrased]. The word "allegedly" was left out. As a matter of law, Lee Harvey Oswald is still presumed innocent since he was never convicted of the crime. Not only did he not live to stand trial, but he never confessed to the crime nor was he ever seen in the window with a gun by anyone at anytime.

 

Also, the location of the "X" on Elm Street has been shown to be an incorrect location for the head shot. It was originally placed at its present position by Robert Groden, erroneously. The actual location appears to be farther west on Elm by approximately 30 feet.

 

If this is your work, I hope you make the corrections. If it's not your work, but you intend to make something similar, I hope that you don't include the same mistakes as the original.

 

[BTW: I'm glad to see the image uploader function is working properly for you now.]

A very important post, and the 2nd paragraph is well worth repeating, again, and again, and again.


Larry

Student of Assassination Research


#10 Mark Messer

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 12:42 AM

I'm completely new to this forum and actually came here after noticing a flood of shills in different places devoted to jfk assassination discussions.

Regarding the thread above, I always wondered why there is no detailed, publicly available, model of Elm and Dealey Plaza, depicting all movements (alleged or real) of objects (people and vehicles) on this day. Given present technology, some objects could be even reconstructed from point clouds extracted from movies. Such model could make it possible to test different scenarios, for example how Z film could look if there were some missing frames, whether it would be more consistent than the present version.

I actually make 3d models and play a lot with graphics since 15 years or so. Can help as far as my other life duties permit.

My native language isn't English, so if my thoughts aren't clear from what I write, let me know.


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#11 Greg Burnham

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 11:36 AM

Welcome to the Forum, Mark!

 

Jack White and I began discussing how to construct such a model in about 2001, but the technology and personnel that would have been required to accomplish it were unavailable to us at the time. Now that Ramon has joined us I hope that it can be done. Thank you for volunteering to participate!


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_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
 
Greg Burnham
Admin

 

 

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

Website:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Main Page

 

Forum:

AssassinationOfJFK.net Research Forum

 
YouTube Channel:
 
GooglePlus:
 
Twitter:
 
Facebook:
 

#12 Mark Messer

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 09:34 PM

About resources, I can, in my spare time, make some CAD parametric models (which are more precise than meshes, however I don't think it's important) of objects and scenery. I remember that somebody did laser measurements of DP in the past. Are these measurements obtainable? As to topology of the place some GIS data is available. Also plans of buildings and vehicles would be of help.

As I pointed out before, some objects, especially their positions and overall shapes, can be reconstructed using point clouds directly from movies, however this would require some preprocessing of frames. Such preprocessing must be made with care to be sure that no data is misinterpreted in the process. I've read papers by John Costella and think he could be of much help in this regard.

 

I also have another idea regarding preprocessing alone that is not directly connected to 3d model. There are multiple techniques that can be applied to photos to sharpen them (as magic kernel by JC for example), deblur, find shapes, remove noise and others. They are used in forensic science quite often. I did some medical apps years ago aimed on finding some regularities on images. My idea is to collect as many hi-res images as possible and process in batch using some selected methods. Then exhibit them along with originals on webpage. There will be many false positives, but knowing algorithms of these methods they can be eliminated. I think that there are still some details, evidences of forgery, missed clues that are hidden for naked eye.

I can make quick batch using some methods from scikit-image or something similar.


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#13 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 09:21 AM

Hi Mark... You seem to be a perfect addition to the team that is being formed.

 

First, we need to check whether I can receive e-mails from you, as I am having a terrible time with my e-mail provider. Will migrate to another one as soon as I can.

 

Please send me a note to ramon@patriot.net.

 

ps: In reference to your English, it is well above the level of the average native born.



#14 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 09:38 AM

About resources, I can, in my spare time, make some CAD parametric models (which are more precise than meshes, however I don't think it's important) of objects and scenery. I remember that somebody did laser measurements of DP in the past. Are these measurements obtainable? As to topology of the place some GIS data is available. Also plans of buildings and vehicles would be of help.

 

Mark:

 

My first thought was "Why reinvent the wheel?" There are several Dealey Plaza models out there. I have contacted 3 of the groups mentioned in my post above, but I don't think they are ready to digest the concept of "open source" yet. Who knows, they may join the initiative later, when we gather more momentum. Speaking of which, I have also been trying to get in touch with somebody who could attach a jet engine to this project: Oliver Stone. This would be a perfect way for him to be 110% vindicated and to close his historical achievement.

 

Anyway, let's walk before we can run. I intend to start a contest in the website Freelancer.com in order to invite bidders. Are you familiar with it? Initially I would start with something flashy, pretty.. and empty. Just the shell of the Texas Schoolbook Repository.

 

Oh!I have the limo already:

 

SS-100-X-from-Humster-3D.png

 

    http://educationforu...showtopic=22435

    http://humster3d.com...tal-x-100-1961/

 

My preferred software is Maya, but I am open to other alternatives.



#15 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 09:58 AM

I always wondered why there is no detailed, publicly available, model of Elm and Dealey Plaza, depicting all movements (alleged or real) of objects (people and vehicles) on this day.

 

 

Mark: I must confess something. I have a terrible defect: I could never qualify as a diplomat.

 

The reasons for such lack of open, accurate, agreed upon models is twofold.

 

( 1 ) Models done by the Lone Nutter camp (Dale Myers/ABC, The Sixth Floor Museum, etc.): like the official version, they have things to hide, lies to tell. Openness and transparency are antithetical to their objectives.

 

( 2 ) From our side (the good people of America and the world, interested in the truth), the problem is that the creators of models are unaware of the tremendous advantages that can be gained by pooling our resources and releasing our work to The People.

 

There is very little we can do about (1), but we can do a lot about (2).

 

-Ramon



#16 Mark Messer

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 01:57 PM

Regarding your posts Ramon:

 

There are models, but as you mentioned, there can be reasonable doubt whether they can be trusted in terms of accuracy. Not only because some of them can be made by lone nutters, also because you never know what blueprints (if any) were used by the designer. Another question is whether blueprints were matched with photos from the day of assassination - it's close to paranoia, however I had a situation while making commercial project when there was a renovation shortly after building erection and plans were off by 2 meters from reality in a certain place.

Empty shell, in my opinion, is wrong approach. It's easy to miss some metrics this way. Better is to have blueprints and reconstruct this structure taking into account spans, trusses, walls and so on. This could also suggest some answers to questions as "what was wrong with the elevator" or "how electricity was switched off". This just gives better insight. Also, Book Repository isn't the only building that should be reconstructed.

Regarding the car model - if it matches original dimensions, it's ok. But this too must be checked. Researchers, or "researchers" quite easily move inside contents according to theory.

As to freelancer.com - never tried this. Post a link to contest, please.

As to scrutiny, my opinion is that we should first collect as many docs as possible, filter them, make some preliminary scaffolding models based on observations, point clouds, etc, and only then start the final model.

As to Maya - never tried, but can export to it from Rhino, Autocad or Blender.



#17 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 07:52 PM

As to freelancer.com - never tried this. Post a link to contest, please.

 

This was one of my latest Contests:

 

    https://www.freelanc...oject_id=278865   (Click on "View Brief")

 

The following was the winning entry. The winner, Anton Sokolov from St. Petersburg, is now part of our team. His company, The Lid, are the official animators:

 

( a ) Minimalist, seen from above:  https://www.youtube....h?v=5oMYjHEQkEQ

 

( b ) With CFD:  https://www.youtube....h?v=k-G11nq5Pa4

 

( c ) Lateral view with more realism:  https://www.youtube....h?v=tB6eB2lXBk8

 

Anton also did this one:

 

       https://www.youtube....h?v=dKC_zBA50HA

 

Which I intend to demonstrate as physically impossible. Have a pair of students in Sweeden working on the simulations (Finite Element Analysis for the cranium bone and Computational Fluid Dynamics for the cerebral matter).

 

-RFH



#18 Mark Messer

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 06:05 AM

Very nice animations. CFD one is the most interesting as it gives some insight into pressure gradients distribution. I assume your students in Sweden are taking such data into account. I would suggest using FE to check what type of bullet would disperse lead in a way seen on xrays, as "dancing bullet" has too much lead still inside (regadless being found on a stretcher :) )



#19 Ramon F Herrera

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 07:23 AM

Very nice animations. CFD one is the most interesting as it gives some insight into pressure gradients distribution. I assume your students in Sweden are taking such data into account. I would suggest using FE to check what type of bullet would disperse lead in a way seen on xrays, as "dancing bullet" has too much lead still inside (regadless being found on a stretcher :) )

 

Hi Mark:

 

At this point you (and any interested reader) should go to this repository (which will become a real web page) and see the material inside "Documentation":

 

    https://goo.gl/da4mcQ

 

Notice the 2 books, one by Donald Byron Thomas and the other by Paul Chambers. I "borrowed" one chapter from each, the one dedicated to the real possibility of the fatal shot coming from the front.

 

Science has not reached the point in which the dispersion of the bullet fragments can be predicted. That is too futuristic. What they do determine (with very high precision) is higher level stuff: forces, momentum, pressure and DIRECTION.

 

    https://www.youtube....h?v=sBQNnhfZ6CY

 

    https://www.youtube....h?v=D6iuVr9V6os

 

    https://www.youtube....h?v=b5bRmtVN91s

 

-Ramon



#20 Mark Messer

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 09:34 AM

Thanks. A lot of useful and interesting stuff. Definitely I must Svein Kleiven paper.

 

"Science has not reached the point in which the dispersion of the bullet fragments can be predicted" - and this is not the point to exactly match the pattern. What I'm really interested in is matching the scale and type of destruction of the skull with type of ammo. Specifically bore and weight - this can be estimated. As there is no way for CE-399 to leave such massive residue of lead without being squeezed flat. Momentum and direction (however I cannot see any reference to jfk case in your movie links) give information regarding position of shooter, but not the type of weapon used (which can be interesting and important to know as it can narrow some further research).







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