Jump to content


Doug Horne essay

  • Please log in to reply
5 replies to this topic

#1 Michael Calder

Michael Calder


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 19 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:33 PM

The Doug Horne essay is excellent. But where was the pre autopsy done and how long would it have taken?

#2 Doug Horne

Doug Horne

    Founding Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 04:59 PM

Mr. Calder,


Thanks for your positive comment.


My firm conclusion is that the illicit, clandestine surgery on JFK's wounds prior to the autopsy took place at Bethesda Naval Hospital (I resist calling it a "pre-autopsy" because it was not really a pre-autopsy; rather, it was simply a hurried gross expansion of the cranial exit wound in the right rear of the skull and the entrance wound in the throat for the purpose of removing bullets and/or bullet fragments from both locations, and evidence of entry in both locations from frontal shots).  It was alteration of a crime scene, and obstruction of justice, but it was not a "pre-autopsy."  It was just plain butchery, sorry to say.


There was no time, following the arrival of AF1, for JFK's body to be taken anywhere else.  There is evidence (AF1 conversations on the tapes, and the logbook or diary of LBJ's secretary) that there may have been plans to reunite JFK's body with the Dallas casket at Walter Reed Hospital, but once JBK decided to stay with the Dallas casket, instead of flying to the White House as Gerald Behn and General Clifton wanted her to do, and furthermore decided that the Dallas casket would be taken to Bethesda in the light gray Navy cardiac ambulance (instead of by helicopter), the Walter Reed possibility was nixed.  Dr. Dick Davis, acting neuropathologist at the AFIP (next to Walter Reed), was set up to perform a craniotomy on JFK that night at Walter Reed, but insisted in his ARRB interview that JFK's body never came there.  Nor was there time.  As my AF1 Tapes/Andrews AFB essay demonstrates, once LBJ stopped speaking and flew away from Andrews, and the TV lights went out, there was only enough time to fly JFK's body to Bethesda.  There was no time for any diversion.


There can be little doubt that the clandestine surgery took place at Bethesda.  The only doubt is the uncertainty some enlisted autopsy witnesses have expressed about the background details in some of the autopsy photos.  (The problem is, the morgue was later demolished and rebuilt in another part of the Bethesda complex, prior to these witnesses being shown the images, so I don't know how valid their uncertainty really is.)  Counterbalancing that sense of unease some of them have when viewing some of the photos, is the very robust timeline evidence we have that persuasively demonstrates (as close to proof as we can get 50 years later) that JFK's body arrived at Bethesda at 6:35 PM.  (Namely, the Boyajian report providing the arrival time of "the casket," and the accounts of Dennis David and Donald Rebentisch of unloading a shipping casket from a hearse at about that time; Dr. Boswell later confirmed to HM1 David that JFK was in the shipping casket.)  We know that Dr. Humes called Dr. Finck at his home at about 8 PM and told him "we have a good set of skull films" (cranial x-rays), and asked Finck to come on down and help with the autopsy.  Finck arrived at 8:30 PM, after the brain, lungs and heart had been removed.  The developing of those skull x-rays would have taken about 30 minutes, per the x-ray tech Jerrol Custer, which means that they were certainly exposed prior to 7:30 PM.


I estimate that following a quick cursory examination of JFK's body after it arrived at 6:35 PM, that the illicit surgery began about 6:50 PM.  After about 15 minutes (only) for this brutal, hurried surgery, the skull x-rays and numerous "autopsy photos" were taken prior to 7:30 PM, probably by 7:20 PM.  This would have allowed 30 minutes for the developing of the 5 or 6 cranial x-rays that Custer and Dr. Ebersole recalled in interviews, and another ten minutes to return them to the morgue so they could be read prior to Dr. Humes calling Dr. Finck on the phone at 8:00 PM.


No one at the official autopsy (from 8-11 PM) recalls seeing the metal head brace (seen in many autopsy photos) used at the autopsy proper, yet it is seen in about two thirds of the autopsy photos.  To me this is simply proof that the photos were taken at Bethesda PRIOR TO 8:00 PM when the official autopsy began, before the large autopsy audience was admitted into the morgue.  To believe that the head brace indicates the surgery took place at another location seems to me to violate Occam's Razor.  I say this because the timeline as we now know it does not permit the surgery to have occurred anywhere else other than the Bethesda morgue.  The "facts on the ground" say the body never had time to go anywhere else.  Besides, during his ARRB deposition x-ray tech Ed Reed recalled seeing the commencement of the cranial surgery, and he testified that it was performed by Dr. Humes, the lead pathologist at Bethesda that night.


All of my conclusions about the clandestine surgery (when, where, and why) are summarized in chapter 13 of my book, "Inside the ARRB," on pages 988-1013.  It is hard to do justice to your question here, so it's best you go to Volume IV of my book, and begin digesting chapter 13.  END

#3 Ray Mitcham

Ray Mitcham


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts

Posted 19 June 2014 - 12:29 PM

In his testimony to the HSCA, Dr Ebersole said the following:

"Upon removing the body from the coffin, the anterior aspect, the only things noticeable were a small irregular ecumonic area above the super ecolobular ridge and a neatly sutured transverse surgical wound across the low neck. As we turned the body on the autopsy table there was a textbook classical wound of entrance upper right back to the right of the midline three or four centimeters to the right of the midline just perhaps inside the medial board to the upper scapula. Again I would like to emphasize this was a textbook wound -- round, smooth, pure pellish, no raised margins.
The back of the head was missing and the regular messy wound. At that point we had a wound of entrance, i.e., the back wound, and no known wound of exit.

This is a photo of the neck wound at the autopsy.


Anybody diagree that the wound shown in the photo is NOT neatly sutured?

Who "unsutured" it?

Or who sutured it after the photo was taken, ( before the coffin was "officially " opened?)


#4 Ray Mitcham

Ray Mitcham


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts

Posted 19 October 2014 - 03:59 PM

Casket Arrival at Bethesda.

6.00 p.m.Dennis David received phone call saying “Your visitor is on the way- you will need some people to offload. A few minutes later a black hearse arrived.

6.35 p.m.Jerrol Custer saw black hearse arrive and cheap shipping casket (CSC)[/b] offloaded. Four men in Blue suits and two Medicals in white operating gear also alight.

(CSC confirmed by Boyajian*, Rebentisch, Paul O’Connor, Floyd Riebe, Ed Reed, James Jenkins. Joseph E Hagan of Lawler Funeral Home*)

Body in body bag. Seen by O’Connor, Riebe, Custer, Ed Reed, and John Van Heuesen of the Lawler Funeral Home.

6.55 p.m. Officlal casket arrives at Bethesda front entrance. Ambulance not driven away to back for at least 12 minutes . Dennis David and Jerrol Custer see official casket arrive.

7.17 p.m. “Official Ceremonial Casket” carried into Morgue, from Limousine at back of hospital on roller.  Sibert and O’Neill help carry casket into morgue and see body prepared  ready for autopsy.* Body wrapped in sheets, not in body bag.

7.35 p.m. Dr Humes says body received ready for autopsy.(Autopsy commenced immediately- at least by 7.30 p.m. (Kellerman*))

8.00 p.m. Joint Casket Bearer Team unload official casket from Grey Ambulance.Gen. McHugh relieved the casket team and took their place.
(Lt Bird Report) No FBI men helped carry Casket in.(Cheek)
Dennis David and Custer(whilst on his way to get autopsy Xrays developed)  see Officlal casket arrive at front entrance.
Dr. Humes called Dr. Finck at his home at about 8 PM and told him "we have a good set of skull films" (cranial x-rays), and asked Finck to come on down and help with the autopsy. 

8.15 p.m.Official autopsy begins.

(*Official Reports)


Who were the four men in blue suits and the two medicos in white gear who exited the black hearse?

How come so many people saw the body arrive in a "grey shipping casket"?

How come the body taken out of the shipping casket was in a body bag when it left Parkland wrapped in sheets.

How could the ceremonial casket which arrived and was unloaded at 7.17 then unloaded again at 8.00p.m.? 

How could preparations for the autopsy begin at 7,17 p.m. when the casket hadn't been officially delivered to the Hospital?

How could Sibert, O'Neill and Kellerman have seen preparations for the autopsy if the body hadn't already been delivered before 8.00 p.m?

How could Jerrol Custer have seen the official casket arriving whilst he was taking X rays of the President up to be developed?

How could Dr Humes (Warren Commission statement) have seen the body arrive at the morgue at 7.35 p.m. if it wasn't officially received until 8.00 p.m.?

How come Dr Humes had a "good set of  skull X-rays at around 8 p.m.?

Could the President's body have arrived at 6.35, in a cheap shipping casket in a body bag, unloaded and taken into morgue (for whatever reason), then re-wrapped in sheets (as it left Parkland)and put back into the empty ceremonial casket (which had arrived at 7.17pm.) and then taken back around the from to be officially received at 8.00 p.m?


#5 Phil Dragoo

Phil Dragoo

    Founding Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 585 posts

Posted 21 October 2014 - 04:30 AM

Ray, "neatly sutured" per Ebersole, then he says the back of the head was missing so we had our entrance wound, only needed an exit--


Mantik interviewed Ebersole here:



Ebersole said see-ya and hung up at the end of the thirteen minutes when Mantik asked about the 6.5 mm artifact on the AP skull


Radiodensitometry is a marvelous tool in the hands of a consummate wizard as Dr David Mantik, able to show forgery in x-rays by calculating the apparent density by measuring light transferrance


Obviously the round object (take a disc from your paper punch for comparative size) is a forgery from "light blasting" by  Ebersole


Elsewhere Mantik's deduction is presented




Within the above pdf is a paragraph from Forsyth, Day of the Jackal (summer of '63) regarding a mercury tipped bullet, something Dr Mantik finds consistent with the JFK skull evidence


Right temple to right occipital-parietal per McClelland (and forty others, Ebersole to the contrary notwithstanding):



#6 Ray Mitcham

Ray Mitcham


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts

Posted 21 October 2014 - 06:35 AM

Interesting conversation Phil. Thanks for posting it. He says that the wound when he saw it was UNsutured rather than sutured

as per his evidence to the HSCA. Also interesting that he confirmed that the back wound was at about the 4th Thoracic vertebra.

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Web Work by: XmasZen.com