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Altgens Shadows vs. Zapruder Film

Altgens Zapruder Moorman Hill Shadows

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#1 Denise Hazelwood

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 09:10 AM

A friend suggested that I vet this out on the forum, so here goes...

 

As you look at the Altgens 6 photo, note the shadows on the far right. I've annotated the 3 shadows below. The top-most one belonging to Charles Brehm, who wore a white shirt and whose hands can be seen clapping above his head on the far right. The middle one belongs to Jean Hill, according to where she was standing in the Zapruder film. The bottom one should belong to Mary Moorman.

 

Yet Moorman was shorter than Hill, and standing farther down Elm Street than Hill (on the grass in the Z-film). Her shadow should be shorter than Hill's...unless she was standing in the street as she said she did. It is not. Moorman's shadow is clearly larger than Hill's.

 

So...your opinions, please. Does this totally "destroy" the Zapruder film as evidence? 

 

 

Altgens #6 photograph, from http://jfkhistory.com/pix/altgensBIG.jpg

 

 

 

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#2 Greg Burnham

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 09:36 AM

Welcome to the Forum, Denise.

 

Thanks for bringing this anomaly to our attention. It is a subject that has been discussed in depth elsewhere, but not yet on this forum. First, I have attached a larger image (Altgens) to this post for easier viewing. I am also pasting the email I sent to you yesterday in order to allow others to come more quickly up to speed on some of what has already been discussed.

 

FYI: I always caution researchers as to the limitations of conducting photo analysis online (as opposed to simply on their computer) due to the constraints imposed by all web browsers. Browsers are limited to displaying 72 dpi no matter the size and quality of the image being viewed. As a result, much "data" is lost through compression. However, this limitation will not have the same impact on all images nor on certain less sensitive studies. As an example, attempting to discern the identity of individuals pictured in a tiny section of a photo (through a web browser) that has been subjected to an unknown number of compressions prior to upload is unwise. However, observing distinct features pictured in a fairly large area of the image, such as your shadows, are not impacted nearly as much. And, for the purposes you are employing, I don't think that the limitations are a significant factor.

 

Altgens6.jpg

 

Here's the pertinent email content:

 

Here's some food for thought prior to my seeing your work, FWIW:

Let me just mention that I too noticed that the shadows (Hill and Moorman)
appear to be of a disproportionate size (length) to each other in Altgens. I
discussed them with Jack White in the late 90's. However, what you are observing
may be something new.

Jack pointed out to me that even if we assume Moorman and Hill were both
standing at the edge of the curb (not on the grass and not in the street) the
curve of Elm St would place Moorman slightly farther south and west of Hill's
position (closer to the light source). This would mean that Moorman's shadow
should be shorter than Hill's for several reasons including the fact that Hill
was taller than Moorman. The fact that the shadows do not fall perpendicular
across the curb line, but at an angle, should amplify this effect by making
Moorman's shadow appear shorter than Hill's shadow rather than longer.

One can see Brehm's shadow with hands clapping (the tallest and farthest north
east shadow seen next to Hill's). Its size appears to be consistent with Hill's
shadow. But, if that's true, then Moorman's shadow should not be longer than
Hill's for the reasons mentioned above. Of course, if she was standing farther
north and east (in the street) than what is depicted by the Zapruder film, then
that perhaps would explain it.

However, I should also note that if Moorman was in the street (off the curb)
that would have further reduced her height relative to Hill's position who was
standing on the grass, thus suggesting a shorter Moorman shadow even if she was
farther north and east. If however, Moorman was standing "sufficiently in the
street" to compensate for Hill's height and the angle of the shadows relative to
the curb line, then, even despite her lower position (off the curb), a longer
shadow could perhaps be accounted for in this way. But she would have needed to
be well into the street for this to work, IMO.

(Of course, the term "longer shadow" is used for convenience. Since we cannot
actually see Hill or Moorman in Altgens we don't know how long their shadows
actually are relative to each other or otherwise. But we do know that Moorman's
reaches farther into our field of view than does Hill's.)

Greg 


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#3 Greg Burnham

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 09:45 AM

One more quick observation:

 

Brehm's hands do not appear to be above his head as he is seen standing on the curb. Note where his shoulders are relative to his clapping hands. For his head to be below his hands it would need to be resting on the middle of his collar bone and he would have no neck! Yet, we do see his hands appear to be above his head in the shadow. I will need to study this more before commenting further.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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#4 David Joseph

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 10:12 AM

Maybe this is something that can help explain the angles and shadows a little....

 

From where Altgens was (he says 15 feet from JFK at the headshot) the shadows are skewed.

Like the corner image which I turned to match the Altgens angle, the shadows can be very deceiving as to where people actually stood.

 

From the turned shadows of Doorman it would hard to tell where the man in the RR hat/overalls was standing and that he's even that large given the thinness of the shadow.

 

 

 

Altgens%20Shadow%20of%20moorman%20and%20

 

 

 

And this is just something I did to see what photos in evidence show of DP..

 

Hope this helps clarify things. 

 

DJ

 

Greg - I think the enlargement of Brehm shows his hands to be over his head...  his head shadow is just above his right arm shadow

 

DP%20photos%20of%20motorcade_zps1cqjrwli


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#5 Greg Burnham

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 11:12 AM

David,

 

Thanks for the observations and added material. As for Brehm's hands and head... -- I'm not sure what you mean when you say: "I think the enlargement of Brehm shows his hands to be over his head." -- I disagree. I don't think the enlargement of Brehm (the actual man not his shadow) even shows his head at all no matter how large the image is magnified.

 

We can only guesstimate based on our knowledge of the relative size and shape of the human body. Since other images of Brehm do not show him having suffered from any gross disfigurement, we can rule that out as a factor.

 

If, however, you are referring to his shadow, then I agree. His shadow clearly appears to show that his hands are above his head. But, like I said, I will need to study this further in order to see if there is an innocuous explanation to account for the apparent inconsistency.

 

If you re-read my post, note that I said that his shadow shows his hands ARE above his head, but his ACTUAL BODY does not appear to be consistent with his shadow. Indeed, all Zapruder frames show Brehm's hands are NOT above his head.

 

Here is frame Z-288 of the Zapruder film [below]. Since the Zapruder Bell & Howell camera ran at 18.3 frames per second, (and for the sake of argument, if we assume the Zapruder film is not altered), then this frame (Z-288) was captured 1.8 seconds after Altgens snapped his picture (Z-255).  We know this because there are 33 frames between Z-255 (moment of Altgens) and Z-288 (where we can clearly see Brehm's hands are not above his head). So unless he was alternately moving his hands above and below the level of the top of his head as he clapped, a movement that does not exist anywhere in the Zapruder film, I do not find any evidence (outside of his shadow's appearance) to support his hands being above his head. 

 

z288.jpg

 

 

Watch the position of Brehm's hands from Z-198 through Z-301 in the YouTube below from John Costella's website. Note this does not include their position at Z-255 when Altgens snapped his photo because Brehm has not yet come into Zapruder's field of view. However, from Z-276 (when Brehm first becomes visible) until Z-291 (when he moves out of our FOV) he makes no such motion. There are 21 frames between Z-255 (Altgens) and Z-276 (when we first see Brehm), which represents less than 1.2 seconds in real time elapsed. Do you see Brehm ever raise his hands above his head? I don't. They appear to be at mid-chest level to my eyes. It is possible that he was clapping above his head (at Z-255) and then lowered them within that 1.2 second window. However, I don't think it is likely. Moreover there are no artifacts of such a "hand lowering" motion circa Z-276. To my eyes, he appears to have been clapping in a consistent manner (at chest level) throughout.

 

 


 

Z-276:

 

z276.jpg


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"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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#6 Greg Burnham

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 12:08 PM

Perhaps the position of the sun, which is rather low in the south west sky in Dallas during November, along with the angle of the shadow relative to Brehm's position on the Elm St curve, could account for the appearance of Brehm's hands being above his head in the shadow but not above his head in other photos or film frames.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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#7 David Joseph

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 01:13 PM

Yes, I see what you mean and agree completely...  Only the shadow makes it appear as if the arms are raised...

 

Thanks


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#8 Denise Hazelwood

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 07:03 PM

Just sitting in my little office space with the the ceiling light behind me, looking at my shadow on the wall and floor. Just putting my hands in front of my face at about chin level, the angle of the light above and behind me makes my shadow seem to show my hands above my head, even though they are in front of me. Brehm's shadow of his "hands above his head" could just be an optical illusion, based on the position of the sun at that time. There are other parts of the photo that I think have been "re-touched," but I don't see any purpose served in re-touching the shadows, which I believe were cropped out of the early published versions.



#9 Greg Burnham

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 07:36 PM

Denise,

 

Are you using Altgens as a control with which to compare the Zapruder film? That's what I thought you were doing, so correct me if I'm wrong. In order for that approach to be valid, Altgens needs to be authentic. However, from this last post it seems like you are suggesting alteration of the Altgens photo. If so, then it cannot be used as a control with which to compare other suspect film evidence. I suppose both the Altgens and Zapruder could be altered. But, if so, then neither one can be used as a control.

 

I agree with you about Brehm's hand position as seen in his shadow probably being the result of the sun's position. I was never suggesting that it was an indication that Altgens was tampered. I was suggesting that, if his hands ever were truly above his head, as his shadow appears to indicate, then that is damning for the Zapruder film, which shows no such hand position.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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#10 Denise Hazelwood

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 08:53 AM

In fact, I do think there were some alterations to Altgens. I've read that "photographic enhancements" were common in the 1960's, and there are some anomalies that I see for myself in the photograph (e.g., SA Emory Roberts' grotesque grimace, SA Warren Taylor's "weird hand," others), and I think that the film is a complete fabrication. The photograph is "authentic" in that the "big picture" is authentic. I think details of facial expression, etc. were altered, but the "big picture" and positions of the spectators were authentic.  A cropped version of Altgens was sent over the wire and was shown on TV on the day of the assassination, so "enhancements" would have been done quickly. I think the shadows were authentic (outside of the cropped area, and what would be the purpose of altering them?) The photo and the film can be used as controls for each other, in that they don't match. And if they don't match, which they don't, something fishy is going on. 



#11 Greg Burnham

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 09:16 AM

Let's not wander off the reservation in this thread. This thread, which you started, is allegedly about the anomalies you observe when comparing the respective size and/or position of the shadows produced by Hill and Moorman. If these observations and your conclusion holds true, then the Zapruder Film is impeached since Moorman is never seen standing in the street in Zapruder's film.

 

Let's keep our focus on that for now else we will be playing into the hands of the conspirators who continue to obstruct justice. After all, this case is rife with contradictory evidence at nearly every turn of the road by design. Attempting to reconcile many of these contradictions usually tends to distract from the pursuit of truth...just as planned.

 

I am in touch with a very trusted expert on this subject (Z-film alteration). He will look at these observations in a couple of weeks. We may be able to apply geometry and come to some hard conclusions. Until then it's just speculation. 


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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#12 David Joseph

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Posted 28 August 2015 - 10:00 AM

With regards to the authenticity of the Altgens photo in question and the Zfilm there remains a very basic confliuct that simply cannot be resolved and is illustrated best in WCD298 on which I will be writing an illustrated article for my first piece to be published here.

 

I also take some of the images and evidence and create my own little pieces of art...

 

Altgens, WCD298 and CE884 all place the final shot much further down Elm...

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 (The image we are discussing) and that is the time at which the first shot was fired?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.
Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

 

If Altgens is 15 feet from JFK Z313 is not the final shot.

WCD placed the final shot 40 feet further down Elm

CE884's Summary tells us that no photo was taken at Z313 which was 4 feet from station #5 (5-04 or 4-96)

    The legend for this plat tells us that Z313 was at 4+65 feet

 

There is other testimony that alos places a shot at the foot of the stairs of the GK...

 

They can't both be right.  Hopefully within the next couple of weeks the article will be posted here...

 

BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight.

 

 

Altgens%2015%20feet_zpsqfckwqt7.jpg


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#13 John Butler

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Posted 17 June 2016 - 09:37 PM

Altgens 6 can be impeached a lot of different ways.  Here's one.  From the content of the photo you can ask the question "Where's Nelly?"  She's behind a grey screen on the window of the limousine and not visible.  In Altgens 7 the seconds later the screen is gone and the window is reflecting a bannister on the Triple Underpass and Nelly is still not visible but not due to a screen.  Perspective is distorted in the limousine in Altgens 6 in order to show Jackie Kennedy's hand on President Kennedy's arm.  If this was not so then Nelly would be seen before Jackie at this angle.  This scene corresponds to Z frame 255.  This is 40 or so frames and about the same number of feet after coming out from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign.  The Stemmons Freeway sign should be visible in this film! 

 

The first people you see in the grassy area just off the curb of the SW corner of Elm and Houston are two black men, one with a black apron in the Zapruder film.  He's visible standing near the street in Altgens.  The Zapruder film shows him standing further back on the grass.  If you look where the black man with the apron is standing there is a sharply turning curb.  The only place you will find along Elm St. where the curb turns sharply is at the corner of Elm and Houston.  There are no sharply turning curbs on Elm St. they transition rather smoothly without sharp turns.

 

There's a lot of other strange things about Altgens 6 such as the reflection on the side of the presidential limousine and what they show.  They show that 40 frames past the Stemmons freeway sign at Z frame 255 is not the real position of the vehicle.  The reflections there indicate the vehicle is in the turn from Houston St. onto Elm St.  You can see cars, a bus, streets and building that should not be there.  If the vehicle was 40 frames past the Stemmons freeway sign at Z frame 255 then what should be reflected in the side of the vehicle is the grassy area between Elm and Main Streets and the backside of the monument area on Houston St.  This is a composite photo where the elements of the photo have been arranged to show a scene and story that the assassins and their henchmen want you to see.   



#14 Greg Burnham

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Posted 18 June 2016 - 12:08 PM

No offense, but "blah, blah, blah." 

 

I do not see how these observations advance our goals in the pursuit of justice for JFK. That much of the evidence, including photographic and film, was altered is not in question. It is established fact. Ergo: A conspiracy to obstruct justice has long been established. In American jurisprudence, conspiring to obstruct justice is tantamount to evidence of complicity in the original crime else there would be no reason to obstruct justice.

 

The continued rehashing of long established facts as if they are new is not productive. Attempting to describe exactly how the evidence was altered is an impossible task and adds nothing to our understanding of these crimes unless such descriptions are the result of actual scientific studies that can be replicated. Indeed, unscientific attempts to reconstruct the details inevitably encourages divisiveness and more often than not such "details" are based on speculation and are therefore inconclusive.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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#15 Charles Drago

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Posted 18 June 2016 - 05:47 PM

Butler appears in the immediate aftermath of our exposure of the upcoming Baker conference -- among others -- as a cover-up-enhancing operation promoting endless re-statements of long settled arguments in lieu of and to indefinitely postpone positive action.


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#16 Jim Hackett II

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Posted 18 June 2016 - 10:35 PM

There is MUCH stronger evidence than contrived film/photos.... Though the alterations are present.as contrived articles of fabrication and LIES.

Too bad time and effort are wasted when the result is more circular "debate" by interpretation.

 

I prefer that evidence which is more impossible to manufacture disputes out of whole cloth and aged and raggedy ass cloth moth eaten junk at that. Round and Round that carousel goes...to no departure off the merry-go-round. A glorified Trivial Pursuit game for all to "enjoy". However some do not enjoy that game of deception.

 

I prefer a focus on the events that are provable about conditions assailing John Kennedy's New Frontier from interests outside the administration as well as inside it, before the fact.

 

I also prefer the proven events of Bethesda Naval Hospital that stitched together the bullshit of primary cover-up.

 

Things above and beyond dispute only open to examination not manipulation in service of the Enemy.

I would instead select the real weaponized knowledge the enemy fears getting a place on the Carousel.

For some "ol' Charlie stole the handle and the train it won't stop, no way to slow down"!

FWIW

Jim

FWIW


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#17 Larry Trotter

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Posted 18 June 2016 - 10:50 PM

For my cent and a half, I don't believe Altgens 6 or Altgens 7 were altered prior to publication.


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#18 John Butler

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 07:46 AM

Thanks for your comments,

 

I'm a 68 year old guy out hear on my own.  I have only been studying the assassination for about 1 year.  To me all of these things are new.  Sorry, If I have stepped on some toes or talked about forbidden subjects, or passé topics; 

 

I don't think justice for Kennedy or Oswald can be established nor will it ever be.  I'm just trying to understand how the assassination happened.  I see things somewhat differently than most.  What I see is that the assassination took place on Houston St. and the intersection of Houston and Elm Sts.  Altgens photos are just one small piece of a larger puzzle.  Elsie Dorman's film is another clue that something happened on Houston St.  There are many other things wrong with the visual record and the testimony of witnesses.  The real location of Jean Hill and Mary Moorman is central to my attempt to understand things.  To me all of these point to a different story than most folks talk about. 

 

I'm just trying to find out if anyone else agrees or sees things similar to what I am seeing as a newbie to this kind of research.  From looking at this website it seems to me you guys have been beat up by your adversaries to often.  I'm not one of them.  I have no goals other than understanding how the assassination occurred. 

 

This is a question for member David Joseph.  Where did you obtain the photo/frame from Elsie Dorman.  It's clearer than anything I've ever seen.  Is there more?



#19 John Butler

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 08:07 AM

Thanks guys for responding,

 

On most websites I get posts deleted and generally get booted off.

 

Thanks again



#20 Greg Burnham

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 11:31 AM

No problem, John. Please consider my post as instructive. It will hopefully allow you to avoid falling into the trap of playing an alternate parlor game not named: "Who Dunnit?" but rather named: "How'd They Dunnit?" by default.

 

Too often sincere newbie researchers end up at square one, circle the playing board, and feel as though they have accomplished something as they "Pass GO" not realizing that this only marked their first revolution around a macabre game board soaked in the blood of a dead President.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

“The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."  -- JFK

"A wise man can act a fool, but a foolish man can never act wise."  -- Unknown

 

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