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Marrion Baker part of the fake narrative?


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#1 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 01:05 PM

What if... we take away the "Marrion Baker story" from the narrative? Then what do we have? Absolutely nothing. The Baker story could very well have been the vehicle with which the public gets to the TSBD. Without it there is nothing.

When it comes to the grassy knoll as a firing position there are many "vehicles"; many different witnesses that have told how and why they believed the shots came from the knoll. And the FBI/WC made nothing of all these statements.
But when it comes to the "TSBD shots" there is only Marrion Baker (supported only by Brennan and Euins) that was sure someone was firing from up there. Looking closely at his statement(s) doubt arrives - as we have explained in the article "the Coke Incident, Captain Fritz´s Notes and the Limo Stop".

Baker´s story becomes pivotal.

Now, was Oswald outside with his fellow workers during the shooting?

Yes, most likely he was. Like I have said before, Fritz´s notes are just something that makes for confusion - some of it is probably true, some of it is false, with the intention of muddy the water. And I believe "they" had to control Oswald as soon as the firing stopped.

Did they order him up to the second floor lunchroom? I doubt it, possibly he was inside on the first floor (helping newsmen to the phone etc) in close contact with someone, someone who controlled him and possibly waited for the station wagon to get back.
It seems as if the second floor lunchroom incident was created to reinforce the Baker narrative and at the same time alienate Oswald from his fellow workers, making him a loner and a possible assassin. Without the Baker story, who could tell the world that Oswald was in the second floor lunchroom 2 minutes after the shots? No one.

And, as I said, without the Baker story, you have noting that points to the TSBD, you only have 51 witnesses that points to the grassy knoll.

They needed the Baker story bad. And Capt. Fritz´s notes reinforce the Baker story. And remember, Baker ran to the TSBD when all other people ran to the knoll - he would rather follow the pigeons than the people running to the knoll, because he did not report having seen anybody shoot from up there.

So, was officer Baker in on it? Most likely. There is no other way in my opinion. If Officer Baker was not in on it and knew nothing of the plot - it would mean that Baker ran like a crazy person straight into the TSBD, not knowing how many shooters lurked inside... still he ran with the revolver like a cop bent on suicide, cause they could still be there with their weapons drawn and Baker knew nothing of the number of shooters. Talk about suicide mission!
What could have been expected of a policeman in this situation? Well, think of how the Dallas Police acted when they went after Oswald in the Texas Theatre - there they surrounded the theatre to make sure they could apprehend the suspect without danger to themselves. Back to the TSBD - Baker had no such thought - perhaps because he knew what to expect..?

And I also would like to raise the question of what would have happened if Oswald had stayed at the TSBD and not "gone home"? My opinion is that the DPD/FBI could not have arrested him. They had to get him away from 411 Elm Street in order for him to be a suspect in the Tippit killing, which was the vehicle with which they could arrest him. Had Oswald stayed, the whole case would have failed. And that is why he was driven straight to the Texas Theatre (and a second Oswald went to his rooming house, while other people killed officer Tippit.)


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#2 Charles Drago

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 04:33 AM

But when it comes to the "TSBD shots" there is only Marrion Baker (supported only by Brennan and Euins) that was sure someone was firing from up there.

 

Baker´s story becomes pivotal.

 

And, as I said, without the Baker story, you have noting that points to the TSBD, you only have 51 witnesses that points to the grassy knoll.

 

They needed the Baker story bad. 

 

"Only Baker" ... plus Brennan and Euins?

 

"Only" ... plus.

 

"You only have 51 witnesses that points to the grassy knoll" (sic) ... except for Brennan and Euins?

 

"Only" ... except for.

 

Emphasis added.


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"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#3 Guest_Darren Hastings_*

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 07:47 AM

What if... we take away the "Marrion Baker story" from the narrative? Then what do we have? Absolutely nothing. The Baker story could very well have been the vehicle with which the public gets to the TSBD. Without it there is nothing.
When it comes to the grassy knoll as a firing position there are many "vehicles"; many different witnesses that have told how and why they believed the shots came from the knoll. And the FBI/WC made nothing of all these statements.
But when it comes to the "TSBD shots" there is only Marrion Baker (supported only by Brennan and Euins) that was sure someone was firing from up there. Looking closely at his statement(s) doubt arrives - as we have explained in the article "the Coke Incident, Captain Fritz´s Notes and the Limo Stop".

Baker´s story becomes pivotal.
Now, was Oswald outside with his fellow workers during the shooting?
Yes, most likely he was. Like I have said before, Fritz´s notes are just something that makes for confusion - some of it is probably true, some of it is false, with the intention of muddy the water. And I believe "they" had to control Oswald as soon as the firing stopped.
Did they order him up to the second floor lunchroom? I doubt it, possibly he was inside on the first floor (helping newsmen to the phone etc) in close contact with someone, someone who controlled him and possibly waited for the station wagon to get back.
It seems as if the second floor lunchroom incident was created to reinforce the Baker narrative and at the same time alienate Oswald from his fellow workers, making him a loner and a possible assassin. Without the Baker story, who could tell the world that Oswald was in the second floor lunchroom 2 minutes after the shots? No one.

And, as I said, without the Baker story, you have noting that points to the TSBD, you only have 51 witnesses that points to the grassy knoll.
They needed the Baker story bad. And Capt. Fritz´s notes reinforce the Baker story. And remember, Baker ran to the TSBD when all other people ran to the knoll - he would rather follow the pigeons than the people running to the knoll, because he did not report having seen anybody shoot from up there.
So, was officer Baker in on it? Most likely. There is no other way in my opinion. If Officer Baker was not in on it and knew nothing of the plot - it would mean that Baker ran like a crazy person straight into the TSBD, not knowing how many shooters lurked inside... still he ran with the revolver like a cop bent on suicide, cause they could still be there with their weapons drawn and Baker knew nothing of the number of shooters. Talk about suicide mission!
What could have been expected of a policeman in this situation? Well, think of how the Dallas Police acted when they went after Oswald in the Texas Theatre - there they surrounded the theatre to make sure they could apprehend the suspect without danger to themselves. Back to the TSBD - Baker had no such thought - perhaps because he knew what to expect..?

And I also would like to raise the question of what would have happened if Oswald had stayed at the TSBD and not "gone home"? My opinion is that the DPD/FBI could not have arrested him. They had to get him away from 411 Elm Street in order for him to be a suspect in the Tippit killing, which was the vehicle with which they could arrest him. Had Oswald stayed, the whole case would have failed. And that is why he was driven straight to the Texas Theatre (and a second Oswald went to his rooming house, while other people killed officer Tippit.)

Hi Staffan,

I too have massive doubts regarding he offical narrative of the Baker/LHO/lunch room/4th floor/encounter. I'm not sure where it will lead in time but I am certain there is still much to be learnt about the minutes following 12:30pm 22/11/63.....

#4 Greg Burnham

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 08:57 AM

Now, was Oswald outside with his fellow workers during the shooting? Yes, most likely he was. Like I have said before, Fritz´s notes are just something that makes for confusion - some of it is probably true, some of it is false, with the intention of muddy the water. 

 

Staffan,

 

Although you may personally believe that LHO was "outside with his fellow workers" -- it is too much of a stretch to say that "most likely he was." And since we don't discuss the "Oswald in the Doorway" theory here due to its divisive nature, I'll leave it at that for now.


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#5 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 02:20 PM

Greg, why get stuck on "Oswald in the doorway" theory, when my point lies elsewhere? Once and for all - I dont know if it is Oswald in the A6 or Wiegman film. I do not occupy myself with that question. So, please, dont hold me to it, because it is not provable. My reason for writing this topic is solely Marrion Baker's actions. Why not comment on that? Many would of course say that there is no evidence for it either way. Perhaps so, but this whole case is full of poor "evidence", therefore one has to try to cherry pick with common sense. Charles thinks that all I present here is "psycho babbel" or something similar - I know he doesnt like me and therefore will ridicule anything I write. I am sorry this has to go on every time I have the intention of present an idea etc.

Greg, I ask you: what is your take on the Coke incident, Fritz´s notes and Marrion Baker's (first) affidavit?



#6 Charles Drago

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 02:47 PM

I  "don't like you," Staffan?

 

I don't even know you, except through your work -- which I consider to be interesting upon occasion but almost always intellectually undisciplined.

 

Can you understand the nature of my criticism above?  If my use of the language is beyond you, then please let me know and I'll attempt to be more explicit in my criticism.  For now, try to grasp the fact that I find your language to be, in the referenced instances, absurdly self-contradictory.  

 

In noting this, I most certainly do not "ridicule" you.  Rather, I point out fatal -- repeat, fatal -- flaws in your argument's foundation.

 

Does the term "sophistry" strike a familiar chord?


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#7 Greg Burnham

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 03:04 PM

Greg, why get stuck on "Oswald in the doorway" theory, when my point lies elsewhere? Once and for all - I dont know if it is Oswald in the A6 or Wiegman film. I do not occupy myself with that question. So, please, dont hold me to it, because it is not provable. My reason for writing this topic is solely Marrion Baker's actions. Why not comment on that? Many would of course say that there is no evidence for it either way. Perhaps so, but this whole case is full of poor "evidence", therefore one has to try to cherry pick with common sense. Charles thinks that all I present here is "psycho babbel" or something similar - I know he doesnt like me and therefore will ridicule anything I write. I am sorry this has to go on every time I have the intention of present an idea etc.

Greg, I ask you: what is your take on the Coke incident, Fritz´s notes and Marrion Baker's (first) affidavit?

 

Staffan,

 

First, I am not stuck on it. However, even if you bury it in the middle I will not let it stand unchallenged. If your "point lies elsewhere" then why include the comment that "Oswald was likely out front with his fellow workers" in your post? I can assure you that I will not bring it up unless and until you do it (yet again). We have had this conversation more than once, but you persist. 

 

Second, I have made adjustments to my own thinking that allows for the probability that much of the "contradictory phrasing" employed in your posts is due to lack of command of the English language. That is an observation not a criticism. However, it does become somewhat tedious to decipher what your true meaning is at times.

 

Third, my take on the evidence you have cited is this: None of it is reliable. Under such conditions it becomes very difficult to judge which parts to "cherry pick" and which parts to reject. Enough is there to keep us guessing, but that's about it.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- JFK

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."  -- Farewell America (1968) 

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#8 Jim Hackett II

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:58 AM

FWIW

 

I have found the evidence as presented in Mr. Barry Ernest's "The Girl on the Stairs" book put the whole matter to rest as to where was Ozzie the chimera!

 

Surely my view and opinion only. However I particularly find significance in the point that she didn't change what she told from "day 1".

 

She knew the cover-up and saw it in immediate motion.

 

Chilling in securing silence until someone asked the right question of her.

 

Jim



#9 Charles Drago

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 07:47 AM

Staffan,

 

If your "point lies elsewhere" then why include the comment that "Oswald was likely out front with his fellow workers" in your post? I can assure you that I will not bring it up unless and until you do it (yet again). We have had this conversation more than once, but you persist. 

 

Second, I have made adjustments to my own thinking that allows for the probability that much of the "contradictory phrasing" employed in your posts is due to lack of command of the English language. That is an observation not a criticism. However, it does become somewhat tedious to decipher what your true meaning is at times.

 

 

Greg,

 

The persistance you reference vis a vis Staffan's repeated attempts to jump-start the LHO-in-the-doorway provocation and then to downplay its significance is indeed troubling.  If it quacks and has webbed feet ... 

 

And while I applaud your kind willingness to bestow benefit of the doubt, I cannot write off the "contradictory phrasing" herein referenced as an ESL artifact.  How difficult is it to understand that the equivalent of "only X was there, except for Y and Z" is blatantly and injuriously contradictory?  Even Charo would get it.


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#10 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 12:11 AM

OK, I am curious, Greg & Charles: Where was Oswald during the shooting. according to you? Do you believe in Fritz´s notes - if so he was perhaps out with Bill Shelley. If you believe in the Wiegman film, he was - called "the Prayer man" - outside in the entrance to the TSBD. If you believe in common sense (like I do) he was watching the motorcade pass by with his fellow workers, simply because there is no credible evidence of him having been elsewhere during the shooting - set aside where he allegedly was when Officer Baker encountered him in the second floor lunchroom. I think "evidence" points to the Baker narrative being staged; can I be sure of this? No, certainly not. But I hold the opinion that there is much in the official story that is (to say the least) questionable. Unless one try to question all these "known facts" and try to suggest another explanation there is no way of ever going forward in this mess of disinformation IMO. I remember a conversation Greg had with Len Osanic on BOP last year, or the year before, when Greg said something along the lines of: Hoover said that the bullet(s) came toward Connally, clearly indicating a shot from in front, and had that been known (in the Press) at the time, there would have been an outrage amongst the public - or someting like that. Now, you tell me how Greg would know that (that the Press would notice that slipup from Hoover) - when I hold the opinion that the CIA Press clearly were gatekeepers in this crime? Of course this was an assumption on Gregs behalf that totally forgot about "Mockingbird", for a lack of a better word. My point is, all of us voice pure opinions (which is OK) based on shakey evidence, because there is no solid ground anywhere in this case. We dont know that the Baker narrative is true down the every nut and bolt. That is why Pete and I try to come up with alternatives to the official narrative, solely based on some sort of common sense (that could be wrong). If we are wrong (and Im sure we are sometimes) then so be it, I can take that. What I have a problem with is the harsh attacks we are subject to when we do. I have to admit, most of what Charles writes (to me/about my topics) I dont understand, because he uses (for me) a very advanced english. 



#11 Larry Trotter

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 12:59 AM

I tend to find it hard to criticize those who did respond to the shots fired at the JFK motorcade on 11/22/'63, and I also have difficulty believing that the entire SS, entire DPD, entire DCSD, entire TR, entire FBI, entire Military, and entire CIA were involved in the murder of JFK and wounding of JBC. I start from there, believing individuals that were responding to a powerful source without regards to their other affiliations committed the crime.


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#12 Charles Drago

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 04:29 AM

My point is, all of us voice pure opinions (which is OK) based on shakey evidence, because there is no solid ground anywhere in this case.

 

... Pete and I try to come up with alternatives to the official narrative, solely based on some sort of common sense (that could be wrong). If we are wrong (and Im sure we are sometimes) then so be it, I can take that. What I have a problem with is the harsh attacks we are subject to when we do. I have to admit, most of what Charles writes (to me/about my topics) I dont understand, because he uses (for me) a very advanced english. 

 

Bullshit!

 

The first sentence above is a pure distillation of precisely what the enemy endeavors to preserve -- doubt where there can be no doubt, timid statements of opinion rather than bold pronouncements of fact.  

 

Let's see if this English is simple enough for you: I stand on the solid ground of truth -- the truth that JFK was killed by conspirators.  Anyone with reasonable access to the evidence in this case who does not stand on that ground is cognitively impaired and/or complicit in the crime.

 

And lest we forget, yet again you persist in attempting to ignite a "man in the doorway" argument -- despite repeated warnings that no such debate will be permitted within these cyber-pages.  Have Greg's admonitions been too "advanced" for you?


"[Y]ou can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity." -- Graham Greene, The Quiet American

"If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence. He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave." -- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods

a wind has blown the rain away and blown
the sky away and all the leaves away,
and the trees stand. i think i too have known
autumn too long
-- e. e. cummings

#13 Staffan H Westerberg

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 04:52 AM

Ahh, I give up. " I stand on the solid ground of truth -- the truth that JFK was killed by conspirators.  Anyone with reasonable access to the evidence in this case who does not stand on that ground is cognitively impaired and/or complicit in the crime." 

" I stand on the solid ground of truth" - No shit. Well, so does 80 % of the American people, and people around the world. 

I am out-of-here! 



#14 Guest_Darren Hastings_*

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 05:32 AM

No shit. Indeed.

#15 Tom Scully

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 05:47 AM

Immediately before Jack Dougherty was hired at the TSBD in the early 1950's, Dallas City Directories over the course of several years described his occupation as furniture repairer at Goodwill. Considering your opinions posted in this thread, Staffan, and the reaction to them, that bit of Dougherty's background is what I was influenced to contribute to the thread.

 

It may not be much, but it is well supported and it is not speculative (not based on conjecture rather than knowledge). I am bothering to post this background in this thread because I find it more interesting than adding up the number of witnesses who when questioned, including Frazier, stated they did not see Oswald "out in front" and pointing out to you that this is a problem that should give you pause, and then anticipate you replying with something such as witnesses are not saying anything particularly compelling as to what they have failed to notice, or that some were probably too intimidated to admit they did notice Oswald in their immediate vicinity and they lived out the rest of their lives and took their terrible secret to their graves.

 

When you have some evidence to post, a break through photo with detail not captured on film early that afternoon in the vestibule, and added in and then deblurred and lightened via computer imaging software, or a sworn affidavit of a TSBD coworker, moldering in a safe deposit box four or five decades and recanting an original, "I did not see LHO, on the steps or on the sidewalk" come on back and share it.

You can gauge the reaction to the new information and sense how much it matters.

 

But that is for another day. Good-bye and good luck. Did Frazier's old car have a bad battery or a bad generator, or was one of them faulty, and it took out the other? Some speculate that the ride in from Irving should have been sufficient to charge up his car battery, and suspect he was lying when he claimed he hung back after LHO left his car with his misshapened lunch which Dougherty claimed he did not see as Oswald approached the TSBD entrance. Maybe if Frazier could be kidnapped and waterboarded by some ex-black site operators, you might get what you would be delighted to hear from him, pass through his lips.

 

Maybe this thread will end after I type this.



#16 Ray Mitcham

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 08:58 AM

Sorry, Tom, not quite.

 

The one thing about Baker's story that has always troubled me is when he said he ran to the TSBD because he saw pigeons fly off the roof of the TSBD after a gun shot. Any intelligent human would know that the pigeons would have flown off the roof of the TSBD where ever the shot was fired from. Would he have run into the Records building if the pigeons had been roosting on that roof. I doubt it.

 

IMO, that was the excuse he needed to enter the TSBD.



#17 Phil Dragoo

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Posted 17 July 2015 - 03:06 PM

Vickie Adams was on the stairs where Lee Oswald wasn't.

 

A secretary got Lee Oswald change for the Coke machine.

 

Lee Oswald was drinking a Coke until it was determined it made his alleged run downstairs less credible.

 

 



#18 Eugene Mcdonnell

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 08:07 PM

I don't buy the baker 'in on it theory'. His statement threw a spanner in the works for the lone nut pushers. Why not say, 'i saw Oswald running down the stairs from the sixth floor', rather than seeing him drinking a coke on the second floor a mere 2 minutes after the event? It just doesn't make any sense. I believe he was telling the truth, which adds more weight to our position than the lone nut stance.




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